# Illegal immigration to the United States **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747 "2015-06-29T00:22:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/121 "2015-07-09T16:57:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Actually, it’s a pretty even handed analysis. Not what one expects from CIS. Aw, now he might have to actually read it! That’s so mean. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/122 "2015-07-09T17:16:17Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Honestly sometimes I think land mines and soldiers with machine guns would be the best solution. If you put up warning signs and someone chose to cross anyway, turn them into Swiss cheese. I think that would be an effective deterrent, better than anything else. As long as we have such a porous border people can just walk over it’s also a matter of national security. It would be too easy for some Muslim radicals to learn Spanish and disguise themselves as illegal immigrants and come right over the border and wreak havoc. The only downside I could see is shooting innocent children which is not ok with me, and unfortunately the illegal immigrants would prob not care enough about the danger and drag their children along anyway. You don’t want that. Sure, you can pretty much close a border that way. North Korea and East Germany have shown that. But for a country that prides itself to be the “cradle of freedom” these two are pretty bad role models. You also should not fool yourself to believe that the threat of getting shot was an effective deterrent, so that you would not have to actually shoot. Over here in Europe immigrants from Africa keep trying to cross the Mediterranean in vast numbers, even though they are drowning by the thousands. That is bad enough as it is, but imagine it was your border guards _actively_ killing that many people each year. It won’t happen, because you are not that kind of nation and you sure as hell do not want to be. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/123 "2015-07-09T17:18:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You didn’t read what he quoted very well. Fair enough. I missed that it included legal as well as illegal. However, it still doesn’t mean anything since there aren’t reliable numbers on this. We can’t even agree on how many are in the US. The government admits 11 million, I’ve seen good arguments that the real number is closer to 30 million. There’s certainly no way to determine as a percentage what amount of the prison population they are. I wouldn’t be surprised if they commit less petty crimes, so as to not get picked up by law enforcement and be deported. But just based on the demographics (poverty and less education) they are certainly more likely to be criminals then citizens (legal or otherwise). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/124 "2015-07-09T17:24:19Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > You don’t want that. Sure, you can pretty much close a border that way. North Korea and East Germany have shown that. But for a country that prides itself to be the “cradle of freedom” these two are pretty bad role models. North Korea and East Germany closed the borders so that people don’t get out. The suggestion was to close the border so that people don’t get in. There’s the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/125 "2015-07-09T17:28:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > North Korea and East Germany closed the borders so that people don’t get out. The suggestion was to close the border so that people don’t get in. There’s the difference. So you’re saying if it had been West Germany who shot the fugitives that would have been ok? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/126 "2015-07-09T17:33:18Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > So you’re saying if it had been West Germany who shot the fugitives that would have been ok? Shooting anyone is not ok. Trying to get into the United States is not a capital crime. Stoll, controlling your borders, and making every effort to catch anyone that tries to sneak in and deporting them is the basic rule of sovereignty. With modern technology, it is quite possible to do that. Yet it is not done. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/127 "2015-07-09T17:40:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Shooting anyone is not ok. Trying to get into the United States is not a capital crime. > > Stoll, controlling your borders, and making every effort to catch anyone that tries to sneak in and deporting them is the basic rule of sovereignty. With modern technology, it is quite possible to do that. Yet it is not done. I agree. I am not opposed to any country trying to keep control over their borders. It was just the “shoot them all” approach that irked me. To what extent the more reasonable methods have been exhausted I cannot say. Could it be that doing more would simply be so expensive that it just is not worth it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/128 "2015-07-09T18:01:55Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > I agree. I am not opposed to any country trying to keep control over their borders. It was just the “shoot them all” approach that irked me. > To what extent the more reasonable methods have been exhausted I cannot say. Could it be that doing more would simply be so expensive that it just is not worth it? Well, let’s do back-of-the-napkin figuring: US-Mexican border is something like 1900 miles long. Let’s say about 900 miles of it is in such desolate regions that the average of 1 person per mile is probably enough to control the rare attempts at crossing, if there is electronic monitoring of the border there. So, for the remaining 1000 miles, how many BP agents per mile are needed to close the border tight? 10? That’s one per 500 or so yards, in three shifts. There are 20,000 BP agents. Yes, there are quite a few who man crossings etc. So you would have to increase the number, maybe another 3-4 thousand. Possible? Definitely. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/129 "2015-07-09T18:23:44Z")
We already have a huge and very expensive military that is located all over the world. Bring some of them home and put them on the border. That would probably save money. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/130 "2015-07-09T18:29:26Z")
There are 20,000 BP agents already? Wow! I am quite unfamiliar with the situation on the US/Mexico border (as I am sure you can tell). My “wisdom” mostly comes from observing the situation between Europe and Africa. To what extent the two are comparable I cannot know for sure, but I believe there may be some parallels. What I observe over here is that the overall desire to migrate into Europe is a very strong driving force. People are willing to suffer extreme danger and hardship in search of the better life they are hoping to find in Europe. All attempts to throttle the flow have proven ineffective so far. People are adaptable - if one alley closes, they find another. Even a six meter high razor wire topped guarded border fence has not stopped some of them from making it from Morocco into Spanish [Melilla](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/22/nine-injured-migrants-rush-border-fence-spain-melilla). As I said: It may well be that your situation over there is a little different. But I doubt that you will be able to \*completely \*close a border this long. Each extra dollar you invest for that purpose may help to get it a little tighter - but each extra dollar will also be a little less effective than the one before. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/131 "2015-07-09T20:00:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The Southern Poverty Law Center, which ironically, is one of the most biased, most wacky organizations to exist. . . . Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/132 "2015-07-09T20:38:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There are 20,000 BP agents. Yes, there are quite a few who man crossings etc. So you would have to increase the number, maybe another 3-4 thousand. Possible? Definitely. 18,000 of those are already on the US-Mexico border. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/133 "2015-07-09T20:42:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > 18,000 of those are already on the US-Mexico border. Ok. So - to go back to my numbers, on the crossable parts of the border that would be what 18 per mile - 6 per mile if you’re running three shifts? One per 300 yards. And they cannot stop the infiltrators? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/134 "2015-07-09T21:06:53Z")
I don’t know. I’ve never been to the Mexican border, but I think you are grossly underestimating the numbers required to staff the official crossings. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/135 "2015-07-10T02:39:44Z")
Instead of cutting another 40,000 troops from the Army maybe they could put some on the border. ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/136 "2015-07-10T02:58:52Z")
Maybe if we addressed the root cause of illegal immigration, we wouldn’t need a fence. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/137 "2015-07-10T12:37:50Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > Maybe if we addressed the root cause of illegal immigration, we wouldn’t need a fence. Or if we enforced the immigration laws that we have. Hell, even if we just enforced them since the Amnesty of 1986. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/138 "2015-07-10T13:45:45Z")
I feel compelled to point out that Obama has deported more illegal immigrants than any other president in recent history and yet you still refuse to give him any credit for it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/139 "2015-07-10T13:47:09Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > Maybe if we addressed the root cause of illegal immigration, we wouldn’t need a fence. The root cause is poverty in other countries. What are we supposed to do about that? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/140 "2015-07-10T13:59:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I feel compelled to point out that Obama has deported more illegal immigrants than any other president in recent history and yet you still refuse to give him any credit for it. I’ve never voted for Obama, and I’ve been quite critical of him. But, sure, I’ll give him credit for being better than W on immigration. That’s not saying much, but there you go. It’s very disturbing that only Donald Fucking Trump is making sense on immigration out of all the candidates on both sides right now. If this keeps up I might have to vote for that jackass. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747.md?page=8)