# Illegal Immigration: Why not just focus on the employers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484 "2006-04-20T15:53:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/21 "2006-04-20T18:03:14Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Why not just establish an easy way for employers to verify a Social Security number? Employer logs onto secure website, enters SS# plus name, date of birth, current address, etc. If the data doesn’t match, employer gets “not valid” message. That would eliminate the vast majority of made-up or stolen SS#'s. I would be willing to absolve employers of responsibility for hiring the remainder of SS#'s that were issued to fraudulent applications; that’s the government’s responsibility to ensure fraud doesn’t occur. IAAL and have a client that is a large local wholesale plant nursery that employs a number of Mexicans. My client has been scrupulous about employee recordkeeping (having passed an IRS and INS audit) and has been asking our congressmen and senators for such a computerized system for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/22 "2006-04-20T18:06:12Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Um. [Holy freaking crap.](http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/20/immigration.raids/index.html) > > I wish I could say “great minds…” Chertoff’s endorsement may be the best indicator I could get that it’s a bad idea, I dunno… Why? And I ask that as a liberal Democrat who fucking hates the Bush administration. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/23 "2006-04-20T18:07:58Z")
Oh, knee-jerk partisanship, I fully admit it. Just a throw-away statement, not to be taken too seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/24 "2006-04-20T18:19:04Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > How hard would be to get one of those numbers illegally? > > I guess what I don’t understand is why the government can’t already do this, if it is indeed so simple. The IRS has all this information already-- why not just cross check and then prosecute for there? It wouldn’t matter if someone logged in illegally. All you get back from entering ssn, name, and date of birth is a yes or a no. You’d need to do a full identity theft to be able to fool the system. Even then, you’d have to get the sex right, and we the legal system might look askance at an employer with a bunch of Latinos with supposed names of Hilda Johannsen and Murray Schwartz. As to why it hasn’t been done - might be a combination of overactive privacy and that businesses don’t really want to crack down on illegal immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/25 "2006-04-20T18:38:59Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I guess what I don’t understand is why the government can’t already do this, if it is indeed so simple. The IRS has all this information already-- why not just cross check and then prosecute for there? I think they are doing just that. From Loopydude’s [link](http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/20/immigration.raids/index.html) > [@CNN](#): > > “That is, they were using Social Security numbers of people that were dead, of children or just different individuals that did not work at IFCO,” ICE chief Julie Myers told CNN. > > “The Social Security Administration had written IFCO over 13 times and told them, ‘Listen, You have a problem. You have over a thousand employees that have faulty Social Security numbers. And we consider that to be a big problem,’” said Myers. “And IFCO did not do anything about it.” What I don’t get is why did they write to them **13 times**??? 1,000 employees with dubious SSNs? After the first time, they should have paid them a visit. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/26 "2006-04-20T19:09:25Z")
Hmmm… How would the system tell if several people were sharing a number? If the guy had like twelve jobs in five states, I can see where that might raise some flags, but if things get kept to a more probable level I could see thing being a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/27 "2006-04-20T19:47:53Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Don’t we have a theoretical “good national ID system” with respect to immigrants of all nationalities in green cards? If you are here legally and with a work permit don’t you have a green card? Not really. This only applies to people who have gone through the legal process of gaining permanent residence. It does not apply to the following people who are legally entitled to work here: a) non-immigrant workers (such as myself) who are here on a temporary work visa b) US citizens The visa probably isn’t forged all that often in the context of illegal immigration because the requirement for pretending to be a US citizen is so much lower (just fake an SSN). So you’d probably need an ID system for everyone legally in the country for this idea to be effective. I have no real issues with this myself, but I’d imagine it would be a tough sell in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/28 "2006-04-20T19:58:17Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Hmmm… > > How would the system tell if several people were sharing a number? They would have to have all the other data that goes with the number: name, address, date of birth, etc. If you wanted to make it even more difficult to share a number, require workers to supply the amount of their last tax refund/payment. It reveals nothing about their finances, but it changes every year. Fraudulent workers would be hard pressed to stay current. Yes, solving this problem will impose some additional hassle on the law abiding citizens. So what else is new? The problem will only get bigger if we demand a solution that puts all the burden on “somebody else”. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/29 "2006-04-21T00:05:18Z")
You might be interested in [this article](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/20/washington/20cnd-immig.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) in today’s NY Times. A few quotes: > [@](#): > > U.S. Cracks Down on Hiring of Illegal Immigrants > E-MailPrint Save > > By ERIC LIPTON > Published: April 20, 2006 > WASHINGTON, April 20 — The apprehension on Wednesday of more than 1,100 illegal immigrants employed by a Houston-based pallet supply company, as well as the arrest of seven of its managers, represents the kickoff of a more aggressive federal immigration enforcement campaign intended to hold employers accountable for breaking the law, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said today. > > Saying the hiring by companies nationwide of millions of undocumented workers is often a form of organized crime, Mr. Chertoff, a former federal prosecutor, said the government will now attempt to combat the practice with techniques similar to those used to try to shut down the mob. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/30 "2006-04-21T01:06:42Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > I’m here legally and I haven’t had a green card for nearly 20 years. I’m a naturalized U.S. citizen. When applying for a new job, I use a driver’s license and Social Security card, just like everyone else. If my current employer were to be audited by INS, like a previous one was, I’d have to show my Naturalization Certificate, but that’s not something I usually carry with me for much the same reasons I don’t carry my birth certificate with me. > > I agree that penalizing employers makes sense, but the trick is telling legal immigrants from illegal ones. Naturalized citizens are not immigrants with a work permit. We manage to print money with a lot of anti-counterfeiting features. Once the printing process is established the product rolls off the presses with great dispatch and at low cost. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/31 "2006-04-21T11:03:17Z")
No, but we _are_ immigrants. I have a trace of an accent at times and a birth certificate which has “England” on it. If you were talking to me on the street or interviewing me for a job and my accent was showing, you would have no way of knowing if I were an illegal immigrant, someone here on a work visa, a resident alien, aka legal immigrant, or a naturalized US citizen. If you were talking to my brothers, you’d have no way of knowing which is a former resident alien who’s now a naturalized citizen and which one is a native-born US citizen. As I understand the current law, we’d all be fine producing identical information to demonstrate our right to work in the US. I like the idea of a system which would flag possibly suspicous-looking Social Security numbers. While I realize they’re not supposed to be used as IDs, in practicet they do seem to be a widely accepted form of identification and, as a programmer, it makes to build on something already in place, effective, and accepted rather than building something from scratch. Here’s one minor fact to contribute to this discussion. When I first applied for a Social Security Card at age 16, the woman handling the application said she’d have to check to make sure I was eligible to work in this country! :eek: Considering I was already working for the town library and expecting to spend the rest of my life living and working in the US, it was a rather unpleasant shock! ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/32 "2006-04-21T11:44:29Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > No, but we _are_ immigrants. Ya know, everybody’s ancestors were immigrants at some point and every nation is made up of immigrants. Things were different 100, 1000 and 10,000 years ago and we can’t keep bringing that up when talking about today. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/33 "2006-04-21T11:49:18Z")
Yes, but it wasn’t my ancestors who immigrated to the US, it was me! I thought I’d made that clear. Maybe I’ve been whooshed? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/34 "2006-04-21T11:55:47Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > I like the idea of a system which would flag possibly suspicous-looking Social Security numbers. While I realize they’re not supposed to be used as IDs, in practicet they do seem to be a widely accepted form of identification and, as a programmer, it makes to build on something already in place, effective, and accepted rather than building something from scratch. There are no current regulatory prohibitions against using the SSN as a personal identification number. [http://www.ssa.gov/history/reports/ssnreportc2.html](http://www.ssa.gov/history/reports/ssnreportc2.html) ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/35 "2006-04-21T14:05:10Z")
In that case, let’s go for it. I _must_ have been whooshed! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/36 "2006-04-21T14:26:02Z")
Siege, The way I understand it, it’s the social security account card itself that’s not supposed to be used as an identification card. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/37 "2006-04-21T16:02:34Z")
For starters, the overwhelming majority of migrant workers work in fields that pay cash (construction, small restaurants, domestic) and don’t need a social security card. They might have busted 1,100 illegals in Houston this week, but those numbers are the tip of the iceberg. Some oft maligned, unciteable, [anecdotal evidence](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=367905). The company I work for employs illegal (Mexican) aliens. While sitting in on a (NY) State payroll audit last year, through his winks and nods, I learned a few things from our auditor. State auditors usually know & can weed out who’s using unauthentic SSNs from the outset. The first 3 digits of a SSN are coded by region and the year the # was issued. For example: both my boss and I were born in the late 1960s in NYC and both our SSNs begin with 059. Even though reporting between state agencies and the federal gov’t is minimal, neither cares when a bogus SSN is used because the (never to be claimed) contributions into the social security, workmen’s comp and disabilty contribute in keeping those systems solvent. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/38 "2006-04-21T17:05:48Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > When I first applied for a Social Security Card at age 16, the woman handling the application said she’d have to check to make sure I was eligible to work in this country! They do that for natural-born citizens too when you start to work, even if you have a birth certificate, SSN card, and all that jazz. When I got my first job I had to wait a few days so they could check that my birth certificate was legit. It’s just standard bureaucracy. I’d love to see the “blame” of illegal immigration put on the employers, seeing as how it’s corporate greed that’s gotten us into this “mess.” I’m in favor of totally open immigration anyway, and a borderless society, but if we’re going to enforce these “laws” then we should get to the root of the problem, not just attack people who came to America for a better life like, well, all of our ancestors (not counting Natives, slaves, prisoners, etc). However, I really don’t see Americans willing to pay full price for the products we buy and the services we use. It’s much more American to pay $1 for a crappy hamburger and then cuss out the Mexican busboy even though his existence is what brings you such savings. On preview: **JohnBckWLD** is also right in that the government is complicit in illegal immigration. Despite all that neocon cloth about how illegal immigrants suck resources away from America, these people actually give back much more. When an employer decides to pay a worker $3 an hour even though his position should pay $7.50 an hour, that worker is giving America $3.50 an hour. Even aside from the unclaimed benefits issue, immigrants keep our prices down and help the rich get richer. I really do think blaming immigrants for being here is a lot like blaming slaves for being here. Our fatcattery would not be possible without them. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/39 "2006-04-21T17:30:53Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > …Despite all that neocon cloth about how illegal immigrants suck resources away from America, these people actually give back much more… In the interest of accuracy, the majority of neo-conservative commentators I’ve read don’t demagogue the immigration issue. Paleo-con; yeah. Neo-con; not from anything I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484/40 "2006-04-21T18:08:40Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > …but if we’re going to enforce these “laws” then we should get to the root of the problem… Hence my suggestion, posed as a question. There’s obviosly sufficient recognition of a problem, but little politcal will to do anything about it that’s constructive. The American voter really needs to come to terms with how me we rely upon cheap labor within our borders to offset skyrocketing trade deficits, etc. They’ve gotta learn to love the “wetback” rather than view him as a parasitic outlaw. The only way I can see to universally motivate 'merkuns is to hit 'em where they live: The wallet. Again, supply-side enforcement seems doomed to failure. The average consumer demands illegals without knowing it. The ones who are fully aware of the need are the ones who depend on the illegal aliens to stay in business. Their numbers are many, but not nearly as large as the illegals they hire. So focus on them, killing many birds with the smallest number of stones. Demand, by necessity, dries up. Prices for, say, things like California produce skyrocket, and consumers wail and gnash teeth and demand change. They also go apeshit over, say, the loss of family farmers and the “American Way of Life” all that symbolizes. Etc. They’ll come around when it hurts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-why-not-just-focus-on-the-employers/353484.md?page=3)