# Illegal Immigration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2006, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792 "2006-07-24T07:27:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/61 "2006-07-25T21:50:38Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Implying citizens **could** live at a lower cost, if they were willing to be satisfied with those living conditions. [/QUOTE] Apparently you would not be. From the [this thread–](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=378866) – [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] **Is $18,400/year (for 4) a fair or realistic “poverty line”?** I think official figures on poverty in America might be grossly underestimated. The Department of Health and Human Services Poverty Guidelines put the poverty line at $18,400 a year for a family of four. Is that anywhere close to realistic? As a bottom-of-the-career-ladder public librarian, I make about three times that. I live alone, by no means extravagantly, in a small town with a relatively low cost of living. And I live from paycheck to paycheck. (In fact, I might have to start moonlighting soon to make ends meet.) If my income went down to, say, $17,960 (twice the official poverty line for an individual), I guess I’d have to move into a storage unit. [/QUOTE] You later corrected your salary to twice the poverty level. The cost of living is a function of a set standard of living. [Cite.](http://www.answers.com/topic/cost-of-living) If you want to change x, you have to change y. You asked how they could afford lower wages; I offered an explanation. Illegal immigrants are willing to accept a lower standard of living, and therefore a lower cpst of living, for a variety of reasons. To suggest that citizens should be willing to do he same is silly. Why don’t you? If our standard of living was no better than Mexico’s the immigration problem would go away. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/62 "2006-07-25T22:02:11Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] 1. Don’t have a cite. You can Google to your hearts desire and report back. 2. So? What is your point? 3. Why dubious? Do you know anything about land tenureship in Mexico? 4. There is nothing in Mexican law that singles out US citizens. 5. You tell me. But again, what is your point? SageRat made an outlandish claim that the Mexican government owned his parents house. That is 100% bullshit. Do you have anything that proves the contrary or are you just being contradictive? [/QUOTE] 1. Then withdraw your claim. Either back it up or back down. You made an “outandish claim” that “land in Mexico that falls within the restricted zone is probably 99.99% privately owned land.” This claim is every bit as much “bullshit” as you say SageRats claim is. And, it’s not impossible that the Mexican Government does own Sagerat’s parents house- after all, both the US government and the Mexican govenrment owns a lot of real estate. However, I expect SageRat is confused over the xenophobic and nativist laws of Mexico which do prevent foriegners from owning land in many areas. 2. Are they or are they not? Do you know? 3. I am dubious are most of the land in the New World at one time belonged to the Government at one time or another. You make claims as if you know a great deal, but you seem reluctant to back up your claims with cites. 4. I ask again- \*can US citizens own land outright in that coastal territory? \* (the answer is no, of course) 5. Yes, they can, of course. My point is that Mexico prohibits US citizens (and others) from owning land in much of the most desirable areas. If the USA prohibited Mexicans from owning land within 100 miles of the border (for example) I’d bet a nickel that Fox and other Mexican leaders- not to mention certain posters- would claim “racism”. Do you know much about Mexican Immigration policies? Does Mexico allow dudes from South of _your_ borders to enter freely, get jobs and become citizens or legal residents? (hint, it doesn’t. Mexico has a much more draconian immigration policy than the USA does as regards to it’s southern neighbors). But somehow, the USA is supposed to allow unlimited immigration. And when some Citizens demur from unlimited immigration, they are called “racists”. If then, American nativists are “racists” (which I doubt) then it stands to follow that the Mexican government with it’s strong nativist policies is equally “racist”. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/63 "2006-07-25T22:57:16Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] For example on WIKI > **[Federation for American Immigration Reform](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_for_American_Immigration_Reform)** > > The Federalist Papers (1788) > Democracy in America (1835–1840) > I'll Take My Stand (1930) > The Managerial Revolution (1941) > Ideas Have Consequences (1948) > God and Man at Yale (1951) > Witness (1952) > The Conservative Mind (1953) > The Conscience of a Conservative (1960) > A Choice Not an Echo (1964) > A Conflict of Visions (1987) > The Closing of the American Mind (1987) > The Death of the West (2001) > Hillbilly Elegy (2016) > The Benedict Option (2017) > Why Liberalism Failed (2018) “FAIR’s policy rhetoric and analysis have often been claimed by critics to be nativist, inflammatory, and partisan.” [/QUOTE] It is kind of humorous that you use FAIR as the benchmark to show that racism isn’t a part of the anti-immigration movement. It’s founder, John Tanton, is a zero-population growth fanatic that doesn’t like Mexicans because he thinks they can’t keep their pants on. Hell, just click on his name in your own link if you want a few details about him. FAIR has such a poor reputation that one of its own spin-offs (CIS) tries to hide any ties to it. Heck, even Linda Chavez ran away from him once his racism became public. Why don’t you try VDARE on your next attempt to show that the movement has little racism in it? That would be even more fun. There are legitimate reasons to be against illegal immigration, and there are likely organizations that truly are fighting this battle for those reasons. FAIR isn’t one of them. Perhaps you’d like to try again? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/64 "2006-07-25T23:09:11Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] 5. Yes, they can, of course. My point is that Mexico prohibits US citizens (and others) from owning land in much of the most desirable areas. If the USA prohibited Mexicans from owning land within 100 miles of the border (for example) I’d bet a nickel that Fox and other Mexican leaders- not to mention certain posters- would claim “racism”. [/QUOTE] 1. The rule is 100 km (62 miles) from the borders, but only 50km (31 miles) from the coastline. Americans can freely own land other than this in the exact same manner as they can here. 2. Within those areas of exception, what Mexico does allow is for a foreigners to have banks hold the property in a trust. 3. A foreigner can do anything with the land that an owner could do, including buying, selling, leasing, using, giving away, or even build a mega resort on it. 4. The only difference is that the foreigner won’t actually hold the title, which will remain in the bank’s trust. 5. The trusts are renewable indefinitely, and each renewal is good for another 50 years. 6. In other words, the difference between the bank trust arrangement and ownership is a piece of paper. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/65 "2006-07-26T01:12:07Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] It is kind of humorous that you use FAIR as the benchmark to show that racism isn’t a part of the anti-immigration movement. It’s founder, John Tanton, is a zero-population growth fanatic that doesn’t like Mexicans because he thinks they can’t keep their pants on. Hell, just click on his name in your own link if you want a few details about him. FAIR has such a poor reputation that one of its own spin-offs (CIS) tries to hide any ties to it. Heck, even Linda Chavez ran away from him once his racism became public. [/QUOTE] In fact, I choose them for that very reason. They are one of the largest orgs, and also one of the more zealous. AFAIK, he _is_ a ZPG fanatic. He’s against all immigration into the USA, no matter the color of their skins. Show me where he says “come on down Canadians but stay out Mexicans”, which is exactly what you’d expect of a _racist_. Instead the site also mentions Illegal Canadian immigration as a problem. Dude, it’s hard to get much more Anglo than Canadians. 😛 Still, that’s being elitist or a fanatic, or nativist or even xenophobic. Too many dudes equate “I don’t like them= they are racist”. I see nothing at all which has even the slightest tinge of _racism_ on their site. Fanatacism, sure. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/66 "2006-07-26T02:15:36Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] AFAIK, he _is_ a ZPG fanatic. He’s against all immigration into the USA, no matter the color of their skins. Show me where he says “come on down Canadians but stay out Mexicans”, which is exactly what you’d expect of a _racist_. [/QUOTE] From [_Blood, Class and Nostalgia: Anglo-American Ironies,_](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0374114439/sr=8-1/qid=1153879852/ref=sr_1_1/002-9161653-5447225?ie=UTF8) by Christopher Hitchens, discussing the “official English” movement of 1988: > [@](#): > > U.S. English, it emerged, was a project of “U.S. Inc.,” a tax-exempt body which underwrote a number of other groups, such as the Center for Immigration Studies, Americans for Border Control, and Californians for Population Stabilization. There was no mistaking the timbre of this joint output, which had little to do with the teaching of “the Queen’s English” except as this bore upon the connection between that English and certain inherited conceptions of race and tribal security. Dr. John Tanton, the originating author of this cluster of groups and initiatives, was himself in no doubt that “the question of bilingualism grows out of U.S. immigration policy.” > > So much might have seemed obvious, at least until Dr. Tanton wrote a paper which, phrased in the poor and affected English which is often found among the language’s more ostentatious upholders, created a crisis for his hitherto blue-chip WASP and Jewish campaign. As he coarsely put it: > > > [@](#): > > > > _“Gobernar es poblar”_ translates as “to govern is to populate.” In this society, will the present majority peaceably hand over its political power to a group that is simply more fertile? Can _homo contraceptivus_ compete with _homo progenitiva_ if borders aren’t controlled? > > Having rather clumsily Latinized or Romanized his argument, Tanton moved to a more demotic style. He warned sternly of such alarming cultural imports as "the tradition of the _mordida_ (bribe), the lack of involvement in public affairs, and Roman Catholicism with its tendency to “pitch out the separation of church and state.” He continued to skirt around these aspects of the problem – the most conspicuous opponents of church-state separation in the 1980s have been fundamentalist Protestants – making an excursion through allegedly low “educability” before returning with relish to his main theme, which was, as ever, sex and fertility: > > > [@](#): > > > > Perhaps this is the first instance in which those with their pants up are going to get caught by those with their pants down. As whites see their power and control over their lives declining, will they simply go quietly into the night. Or will there be an explosion? > > This piece of inadvertence – the shift to “white” as the key word speaks volumes in the extract above, as well as showing the secondary significance of ideas like “culture” and “language” – led to the resignation of many of the U.S. English board members, among them Walter Cronkite and the neoconservative Hispanic Linda Chavez. It also led to closer scrutiny of the network of which Dr. Tanton was the convenor. The chairman of the Florida English campaign, for example, had advocated the elimination of emergency telephone services in Spanish in order to supply what he called an “incentive” to the learning of the tongue of Shakespeare and Dickens. His Dade County equivalent had warned that “the United States is not a mongrel nation.” Rusty Butler, an aide to Senator Steven Symms of Idaho, had forwarded the senator’s call for an English-language amendment to the Constitution by saying that “the language issue could feed and guide terrorism in the U.S.” Finally, it was discovered that among the donors to Dr. Tanton’s network was the Pioneer Fund, established in the unpropitious year of 1937 to proselytize for what it then called “applied genetics in present-day Germany.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/67 "2006-07-26T02:36:56Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Still, that’s being elitist or a fanatic, or nativist or even xenophobic. Too many dudes equate “I don’t like them= they are racist”. I see nothing at all which has even the slightest tinge of _racism_ on their site. Fanatacism, sure. [/QUOTE] Perhaps because Tanton does an effective job of keeping his various anti-immigration groups separate so that he can use neutral “sounding” groups like FAIR to keep pushing his overall goals [as outlined in this report from the Southern Poverty law Center](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=93) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/68 "2006-07-26T04:35:46Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] From the “official English” movement of **1988** : [/QUOTE] Bolding mine. Do you have the same political pricipals as you did 20 years ago? I don’t. And, even so, what was PC then is not what is PC now. That language is taken out of context. Maybe Tanton is a bit of a racist, I don’t know. That doesn’t mean the entire USA anti-immigration movement is all racist, all the time, either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/69 "2006-07-26T04:45:32Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Maybe Tanton is a bit of a racist, I don’t know. That doesn’t mean the entire USA anti-immigration movement is all racist, all the time, either. [/QUOTE] No, of course not. But it does mean **some** of the USA anti-immigration movement is racist **some** of the time, including the present time, and there is no point in denying it nor in trying (as if you would) to justify it. There really is no reasonable way to remove racism-as-a-highly-and-painfully-relevant-factor from this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/70 "2006-07-26T05:37:53Z")
Ok, I’m about to get myself in trouble here, but here I go: I don’t care what race they are. I don’t care about their skin color. I could give less than a shit about the " " they believe in. What I care about is: Are they here legally? Are they attempting to become part of American society? Do they have a place to go home to? (Just in case posters have noticed that most of my posts have involved hockey) I will quite honestly say I do not like or enjoy the way young Latino males act toward women. Because I have a job in construction does not make me a “puta”. Because I walk down a sidewalk alone does not make me a “puta”. Have any of ya’ll gotten the idea that I’m very tired of being called a “whore” every time a Mexican man sees me alone? Something needs to be done. From what I have read, the illegal immigrants don’t care to assimilate, because they plan to go home. I, for one don’t like being scared to go into formerly “female safe” places because they’re not anymore. If that is racist, then I guess I am. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/71 "2006-07-26T12:18:02Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] No, of course not. But it does mean **some** of the USA anti-immigration movement is racist **some** of the time, including the present time, and there is no point in denying it nor in trying (as if you would) to justify it. There really is no reasonable way to remove racism-as-a-highly-and-painfully-relevant-factor from this discussion. [/QUOTE] Are you including the anti-white racism of a lot of lefties? You know, the kind who rejoice in the thought of whites becoming a minority in the United States? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/72 "2006-07-26T12:20:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] No, of course not. But it does mean **some** of the USA anti-immigration movement is racist **some** of the time, including the present time, and there is no point in denying it nor in trying (as if you would) to justify it. There really is no reasonable way to remove racism-as-a-highly-and-painfully-relevant-factor from this discussion. [/QUOTE] Of course. In fact I said "So, sorry- not (much) based upon racism, so much as xenophobia and nativism. Nor have I tried to justify it. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/73 "2006-07-26T16:58:17Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] My expereinces and cites working with braceros and migrant farm workers would indicate those are rare and unusual cases, not “business as usual”. Please give a cite showing such practices (forced labor) occcur in a large % of the orange industry. [/QUOTE] The problem is not if 51% of the orange pickers are held behind barbed wire. The problem is that the orange industry and other industries are dependant on illegal workers, but because of the legal fictions we’re created, the people who profit the most have the least to lose while the workers are not able to obtain help from the police and other autorities when they are subject to such practices, since they are “illegal”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/74 "2006-07-26T17:19:55Z")
[QUOTE=TokyoPlayer] The problem is not if 51% of the orange pickers are held behind barbed wire. The problem is that the orange industry and other industries are dependant on illegal workers, but because of the legal fictions we’re created, the people who profit the most have the least to lose while the workers are not able to obtain help from the police and other autorities when they are subject to such practices, since they are “illegal”. [/QUOTE] Of course they can get help. They may be too frightened to get that help, but the help is there. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/75 "2006-07-26T18:52:45Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Are you including the anti-white racism of a lot of lefties? You know, the kind who rejoice in the thought of whites becoming a minority in the United States? [/QUOTE] I think we need a separate thread to address wild-ass paranoid delusions of conservatives. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/76 "2006-07-26T18:59:14Z")
[QUOTE=SnakesCatLady] From what I have read, the illegal immigrants don’t care to assimilate, because they plan to go home. [/QUOTE] [shrug] [If they do neither, so what?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=366734) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/77 "2006-07-26T19:01:12Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Of course they can get help. They may be too frightened to get that help, but the help is there. [/QUOTE] And they can get it without risking deportation? Where would they turn for help of that kind? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/78 "2006-07-26T19:06:53Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Are you including the anti-white racism of a lot of lefties? You know, the kind who rejoice in the thought of whites becoming a minority in the United States? [/QUOTE] 1. Such would be irrelevant in analyzing the motives of the \*\*anti-\*\*immigration movement. 2. Cite? 3. So what? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792/79 "2006-07-26T19:17:52Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] And they can get it without risking deportation? Where would they turn for help of that kind? [/QUOTE] Well, at least out here, the various PD’s are prohibited from asking that question or giving that info to INS. Now, this is on _victims_, not suspects- of course suspects are turned over to the INS. And, I know the IRS has a “no sharing” (Privacy act) policy where information of that sort will NOT be shared with other agencies. Sure, during a IRS started investigation into illegal drug $ laundering that info could come up on a suspect and be transmitted through FinCen. But in general, if dudes ask for help as _victims_, they are safe. Please show me a PD or other Law enforcment org where \*informants or victims \* are being deported or turned in because of their immigration status. Of course, sometimes fingers are pointed in both directions “hey, those dudes exploited me” "Yeah, well you stole from _me"_, and thus an informant/victim could turn into a suspect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration/365792.md?page=3)