# illegal names in Europe?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [July 30, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893 "2005-07-30T15:58:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/101 "2005-08-02T15:08:47Z")
About 10% of the Icelandic population (these are people of Icelandic ethnicity) has stable patrilinear surnames which don’t change from generation to generation. That’ll likely grow slightly with immigration from other cultures.
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### Author:  [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/102 "2005-08-02T17:02:58Z")
> [@Fenris](#):
>
> My take is that there’s nothing wrong with “defensive” laws (“The government may stop you from giving your child a truely horrible or obscene name–but it’s up to the gov. to prove that it _is_ horrible”), but an “offensive” law (“Here’s the list of names that the People’s Glorious Commission For Appropriate Names has approved–should you wish to name your child something not on the approved list you must plead with the People’s Glorious Commission For Appropriate Names for an exemption. To start, fill out forms in triplicate, get 23 people to write out one paragraph statements which will vouch for the reasonableness of the name and enclose a $50.00 processing fee.”) is problematic. 😉
>
> In one case, the government has a tool to help prevent really bad names being inflicted on children. In the other, the state is assuming guilt and the idea of a state-approved list of acceptible names _is_ creepy, IMO.
>
> It’s precisely the same thing as saying “The government can prosecute you if you write something treasonous, or libelous” and “Here’s a list of topics the government will let you write about.”
>
> Fenris
And thus, **Fenris** manages to state quite eloquently in one post what I’ve been trying to stumble around the last three pages. 😉
There seems to be an assumption that left to their own devices, European parents will run amok with weird naming conventions. Why try to fix a problem before it’s been established that there is indeed a problem? For instance, how were Danish and French children named _before_ the establishment of the naming lists? Were there a plethora of boys named Sue?
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### Author:  [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/103 "2005-08-02T17:28:02Z")
A lot of boys in France named Jean, I suppose. 🙂
Yes, yes, I know, :smack: but I remember as a young kid reading a storybook and wondering why this boy had a girl’s name. As in, too young to have learned any French or French names, you see.
btw I’m not aware of any legal restrictions on the Naming of Brats hereabouts, and I can change my name ot anything I like as long as I don’t intend any fraud or deception. I don’t even have to change it by deed poll.
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/104 "2005-08-02T19:52:16Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#):
>
> Sorry I thought you meant “European” in the same sense as it was used by the OP.
>
> I think you must have missed the part when it was explained that you can request they accept a “foreign” name, provided it exists somewhere else or that you are a member of that ethnicity. I have met ethnic Asians in Denmark and they sure were not called \*Åsa \*or _Øjvind_.
What!!??? There are no ethnic Asians! There are ethnic Chinese, & ethnic Turks, & various South Asian ethnicities, but there is no such ethnicity as “Asian” (unless they’re, like, preTurkish natives of Asia Minor? But no, even then, “Asian” wouldn’t be the word)!!!???
How dare you?!!!??
[/jk] 😃
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### Author:  [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/105 "2005-08-02T19:58:59Z")
> [@Fenris](#):
>
> My take is that there’s nothing wrong with “defensive” laws (“The government may stop you from giving your child a truely horrible or obscene name–but it’s up to the gov. to prove that it _is_ horrible”), but an “offensive” law (“Here’s the list of names that the People’s Glorious Commission For Appropriate Names has approved–should you wish to name your child something not on the approved list you must plead with the People’s Glorious Commission For Appropriate Names for an exemption. To start, fill out forms in triplicate, get 23 people to write out one paragraph statements which will vouch for the reasonableness of the name and enclose a $50.00 processing fee.”) is problematic. 😉
I would tend to agree with this, but I don’t think that countries that have an official list of allowed names will really only allow these names and nothing else. My guess would be that if you want to give your child a name which isn’t on the list, in most cases no one will notice, and if you have the bad luck of being asked questions, you’ll just have to show an instance of the name. No huge bureaucratic hassle as **Fenris** suggests. Governments don’t go out of their way to try to oppress people; the goal of these laws is not to prepare us for more immoral assaults on our hard-earned liberty but rather to ensure that children don’t have a name that is too easily mockable (and in the case of Norway’s laws that **hildea** mentions, to protect rare names, which is something that I personally don’t care about but I’m sure that there are people who do).
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/106 "2005-08-02T20:37:47Z")
Ok, I really don’t have a problem with certain words being _precluded_ as names. Naming your kid “General” or “Doctor” or “One True God” is unbelievably tacky. So, if the state says, “No, we’re not putting that in the records,” well, who could blame them?
That said. I’m an American, with strong British cultural influences. I believe that if one follows logical & consistent name-coining conventions, a newly coined name, or a name resurrected from antiquity, is as legitimate as a fashionable & common one.
If girls in Denmark may be named _Evangeline, Eugenie, Euphemia, Eunike, Thalia, Iris_, or any of four different spellings of _Melanie_ (!); than it stands to reason that a Dane should be able to name his daughter _Aglaia_, unless this makes an ugly pun in Danish; or a form of _Euphrosyne_, or some other Greek name not on the list. Or for that matter, _Melania_ (weirdly, not on the list) instead of one of the other forms of Melanie. Don’t tell me I can’t end a Hellenistic name in an “A,” you’ve got Eufemia & Euphemia right there!
But I can see the following conversation, if I were Danish:
_Alternate Danish Fool’s-guinea:_ So, we’re naming our daughter Euphrosyne.
_Person in Position of Petty Authority:_ No can do. We’re not making her schoolteachers learn to pronounce some arbitrary tongue-twister you pulled out of your ass.
_ADF-g:_ It’s not arbitrary; it’s the Greek word for “Joy,” & one of the Graces in classical tradition.
_PiPoPA:_ :dubious: Are you Greek?
_ADF-g:_ No, I’m Danish.
_PiPoPA:_ Is your wife Greek?
_ADF-g:_ No, but what does that have to do with anything? It’s a classical name, which is also distinctive. Do you want my daughter to be one of seven girls named “Agatha” in her kindergarten class?
_PiPoPA:_ You’re Danish. Take a Danish name.
_ADF-g:_ Why? Danes are allowed to name their daughters Penelope, or Thalia, which are classical Greek names. Why not Euphrosyne?
_PiPoPA:_ Ah, there you go. You like Greek names, use one of those.
_ADF-g:_ We like this one. Why can’t we use this one.
_PiPoPA:_ Well, if you were Greek, you could use a Greek name not on the list as a nod to your ancestry & culture. But, you’re Danish. Why do you want a Greek name anyway?
_ADF-g:_ I’m a Hellenophile.
_PiPoPA:_ Which means what?
_ADF-g:_ I’m an aficionado of Greek culture.
_PiPoPA:_ … I’m sorry, I assumed you were heterosexual. So will the mother of the child be raising the girl, or you & your life partner?
_[Alternate Danish Fool’s-guinea strikes Person in Position of Petty Authority]_
[note: I have no idea if the code-word use of “Greek culture” translates into Danish. It just feels like that kind of conversation.]
---
### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/107 "2005-08-02T20:41:05Z")
(I should note that “Rosine” is on the list, so we could probably come to some sort of compromise, if we could get around the assault charge…)
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### Author:  [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/108 "2005-08-03T02:35:45Z")
**lhovis73** (w/regards to limitations on what minors can check out from library):
> [@](#):
>
> Not only do most American libraries work this way, I’m certain that most American parents like it this way, indeed, EXPECT their librarians to keep certain materials from their children
?seriously?
I do not recall _ever_ being denied access to any part of the public library I was interested in. I would not be surprised to find that at some point restrictions were put on what 8 year olds can check out, but 14 year olds???
A public library should most definitely _not_ take it upon itself to determine what a 14 year old kid does or does not read. If the parents do not want their kid to read certain books, let them put the time and energy into doing the censoring themselves.
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### Author:  [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/109 "2005-08-03T03:04:02Z")
For the benefit of non-American readers (and some of the American ones as well): we can change our _legal_ names without petitioning any office whatsoever. Your legal name in the US is the name that you use, as long as you don’t use it with intent to commit fraud. Therefore if I wish my name to be Mookus McDoofus Twofuss:
• I begin using the name on an everyday casual basis;
• I get some accounts and bills set up in my new name (phone bills, electric bills, etc)
• After having accumulated some correspondence addressed to me in this manner, I take on my state’s Department of Motor Vehicles to get my driver’s license to reflect the change. I may have to be stubborn and aggressive with the personnel I deal with, and they in turn will be more concerned with the possibility that I’m trying to commit fraud, but the law is on my side. My name is the name that I use, and I have documentation showing that this is the name I use now.
• With driver’s license in hand, I go after the Social Security Administration for a new SS card showing the new name. Likewise the Department of State for a passport under the new name, if I have a passport.
I could choose to do the formal application for a name change (the procedure does exist) and in some individual cases that might streamline the process. But it’s not necessary to get any official entity’s official approval.
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### Author:  [@hildea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hildea)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/110 "2005-08-03T06:58:34Z")
> [@ivylass](#):
>
> There seems to be an assumption that left to their own devices, European parents will run amok with weird naming conventions.
Rather, that a small minority might be saddled with extremely unfortunate names.
> [@](#):
>
> Why try to fix a problem before it’s been established that there is indeed a problem? For instance, how were Danish and French children named before the establishment of the naming lists? Were there a plethora of boys named Sue?
This [list of unusal names from 1801](http://www.ssb.no/fob2001/utstilling/1801/navn_uvanlig.html) includes some extremely weird ones, but it is hard to say how they would have been seen more than two hundred years ago. Some more current examples which are described as likely to be refused in Norway ([cite](http://www.sprakrad.no/templates/Page.aspx?id=156) in Norwegian) are: Musa (a version of Mohammed in Arabic, but unfortunately means “cunt” in Norwegian) and Fita and Fite (Romany/Flemish versions of Josefa/Sofie, but “fitte”/“fitta” is another Norwegian word for the aforementioned part of female anatomy, ever cruder than the first one).
In a commentary to the law from the Ministry of Justice ([in Norwegian](http://www.odin.dep.no/jd/norsk/regelverk/rundskriv/012101-250014/index-dok000-b-n-a.html)), the “A boy named Sue” situation is mentioned at some length as an example of names that should not be permitted, so it would seem that this actually happens with some frequency. (The commentary also states that for people who identify as transgendered, this restriction should _not_ apply.)
To change your legal name in Norway, you fill out a form and send it to the county you live in. No need to accumulate correspondence or get stubborn or aggressive with anyone 🙂 However, you can’t change your name more often than every 10 years, unless there’s a good reason.
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### Author:  [@Ashes\_Ashes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashes_Ashes)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/111 "2005-08-03T08:10:30Z")
> [@hildea](#):
>
> One example: My children have their own library cards. Since they are under 14, they needed my or my husbands signature to get them. But now that they have them, they can check out anything the library has available. I’ve learnt (from SDMB 🙂 ) that, at least in some places in US, there are special library cards for children, to ensure that they don’t borrow “the wrong kind” of books. That concept gave _me_ one of those _“WTF? Don’t they care about freedom?”_ moments some of you Americans seem to go through in this thread.
Well sure, I want freedom _for me_. Freedom for you is debatable, and freedom for children? Absolutely not. Sadly, many people think this way.
Growing up, I spent my afternoons waiting for my parents to get off work, in the library. We not only had seperate cards, but the children’s section was on a different floor, in the basement (I always felt they thought us dirty laundry to be hidden out of sight). One time, when I was about eleven or twelve, I decided to see what was upstairs. I was stopped and told I wasn’t allowed on the adult floor until I was in high school. My parents couldn’t give me permission to be on the adult’s floor unless they accompanied me the entire time.
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### Author:  [@Fern\_Forest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fern_Forest)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/112 "2005-08-03T08:22:50Z")
If the stated purpose of the law is to prevent children from getting teased about their name but we agree that parents can and do call their children whatever they want, even if it’s not their legal name, then doesn’t that just run right around what the law intends to do?
I’ve known people who were unhappy with normal names and with weird names. And other people who loved their weird name (me) or their normal name. People have always loved my name and I’ve never been teased about it. I’ve seen kids get teased mercilessly with normal names. And I’ve seen the opposite of these too. Teasing seems to have a lot more to do with the personalilty of the bully and the victim then about the subject of the taunts.
Surely these laws are just left overs from an earlier time supported by late to the field explanations. Which country adopted one of those laws last and when?
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### Author:  [@Fern\_Forest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fern_Forest)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/113 "2005-08-03T08:29:40Z")
I’ve had the same library card since I was 12, that’s 18 years. My parents had to sign for it when I first got it but other then that I’ve never run into any restrictions at all.
But then the local libraries never carried Playboy. But if I wanted to look at some “art” then by golly I want and looked at it. Perhaps you might run into difficulty now renting a movie that was rated R but I don’t think they did that when I was under 18 so I can’t say.
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### Author:  [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/114 "2005-08-03T09:45:32Z")
> [@AHunter3](#):
>
> **lhovis73** (w/regards to limitations on what minors can check out from library):
>
> ?seriously?
>
> I do not recall _ever_ being denied access to any part of the public library I was interested in. I would not be surprised to find that at some point restrictions were put on what 8 year olds can check out, but 14 year olds???
>
> A public library should most definitely _not_ take it upon itself to determine what a 14 year old kid does or does not read. If the parents do not want their kid to read certain books, let them put the time and energy into doing the censoring themselves.
I suppose it might depend on the library, but in my system, children’s cards expire when the child is 11 or 12. But even when my children were five, I had the option to allow unrestricted access.
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### Author:  [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/115 "2005-08-03T11:24:21Z")
> [@tschild](#):
>
> 1. the name must not be misleading as to the child’s sex (i.e. it may be ambiguous, e.g. Andrea for a boy, in which case a nonambiguous additional first name is recommended, but it must not be unambiguously of the wrong sex).
“Andrea” is ambiguous? I’d always think an Andrea is a girl.
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### Author:  [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/116 "2005-08-03T12:11:03Z")
> [@AHunter3](#):
>
> For the benefit of non-American readers (and some of the American ones as well): we can change our _legal_ names without petitioning any office whatsoever. Your legal name in the US is the name that you use, as long as you don’t use it with intent to commit fraud.
It’s the same in Britain (well, England and Wales at least).
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### Author:  [@mkl12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkl12)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/117 "2005-08-03T12:11:54Z")
> [@AWB](#):
>
> “Andrea” is ambiguous? I’d always think an Andrea is a girl.
But in Italian it’s a boy’s name.
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/118 "2005-08-03T18:10:48Z")
> [@AHunter3](#):
>
> For the benefit of non-American readers (and some of the American ones as well): we can change our _legal_ names without petitioning any office whatsoever. Your legal name in the US is the name that you use, as long as you don’t use it with intent to commit fraud. Therefore if I wish my name to be Mookus McDoofus Twofuss:
>
> • I begin using the name on an everyday casual basis;
>
> • I get some accounts and bills set up in my new name (phone bills, electric bills, etc)
>
> • After having accumulated some correspondence addressed to me in this manner, I take on my state’s Department of Motor Vehicles to get my driver’s license to reflect the change. I may have to be stubborn and aggressive with the personnel I deal with, and they in turn will be more concerned with the possibility that I’m trying to commit fraud, but the law is on my side. My name is the name that I use, and I have documentation showing that this is the name I use now.
>
> • With driver’s license in hand, I go after the Social Security Administration for a new SS card showing the new name. Likewise the Department of State for a passport under the new name, if I have a passport.
> I could choose to do the formal application for a name change (the procedure does exist) and in some individual cases that might streamline the process. But it’s not necessary to get any official entity’s official approval.
Nope:
[http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cfg/php/enduser/std\_adp.php?p\_faqid=80](http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=80)
> [@](#):
>
> You also must submit one or more documents identifying you by both your OLD NAME and your NEW NAME. Documents that may show your old name, new name and identifying information include your marriage certificate, divorce decree or a court order changing your name. If you were born outside of the U.S, submit proof of your U.S. citizenship or lawful alien status. All documents must be either originals or copies certified by the issuing agency. We cannot accept photocopies of documents. Notarized copies also are not acceptable.
[http://travel.state.gov/passport/fri/amend/amend\_851.html](http://travel.state.gov/passport/fri/amend/amend_851.html)
> [@](#):
>
> Send a completed form DS-19, Passport Amendment/Validation Application, a certified copy of your marriage certificate or your name change court decree, and your current valid passport to the following address:
> Charleston Passport Center
> Attention: Amendments
> 1269 Holland Street
> Charleston, SC 29405
>
> Photocopies and notarized copies are not acceptable
> for passport purposes
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### Author:  [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/119 "2005-08-03T18:14:55Z")
> [@AWB](#):
>
> “Andrea” is ambiguous? I’d always think an Andrea is a girl.
Tell that to Princess Caroline of Monaco’s son and heir!
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### Author:  [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/120 "2005-08-03T19:19:30Z")
> [@tschild](#):
>
> 1. the name must not expose the child to ridicule
Homer (Simpson) demostrated that it’s quite easy for any name to be riduculed. While they were trying to name Bart, Marge kept suggesting names and Homer kept seeing how they could be mad fun of.
Marge: Homer, I’ve been thinking, if the baby’s a boy, what do you think
of the name Larry?
Homer: Marge, we can’t do that! All the kids will call him `Larry Fairy'. Marge: Well, how about Louie? Homer: They'll call him `Screwy Louie’.
Marge: Bob?
Homer: `Flob'. [?] Marge: Luke? Homer: `Puke’.
Marge: Marcus?
Homer: `Mucus’.
Marge: What about Bart?
Homer: Let’s see… Bart, Cart, Dart, Ee-art… Nope, can’t see any problem
with that!
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