# illegal names in Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 30, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893 "2005-07-30T15:58:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/141 "2005-08-08T19:02:27Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > The tradition might be the same (wives are called by their husband’s name), it the _law_ that is different…though actually…is it really diffrent? Does an american or british wife legally take her husband’s name when she marries him? The Anglo-American tradition is that a woman changes her name upon marriage. In the United States, the name change is also a change of legal name. Historically, I believe, most state courts assumed that the wife would take her husband’s family name. These days, when a couple applies for a marriage license, there often is a provision on the application for one or both parties to legally change their names. Since the 1970s, of course, it has become more and more common for women to choose an alternative, most commonly, (1) not change their names at all, (2) hyphenate their family names with their husbands’ names. There are some women who sort of transition from maiden name =\> hyphenated name =\> husband’s name. But in any case, a married woman’s “social” name almost always is exactly the same as her legal name. If she chooses not to change her social name, then her legal name does not change; if she chooses to change her social name, then her legal name also changes. Of course, there is nothing in U.S. law or custom to stop a woman from doing what is apparently done in France, which is to change her social name, but keep her legal name the same, and there are some women who do do that, but it seems to me that this is quite rare. Such cases would be noted as being out of the norm. ---
**Author:** ![sweet\_sue\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@sweet\_sue\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweet_sue_1)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/142 "2005-08-08T20:04:20Z")
Parents need not be malicious, just stupid. I once prosecuted a felon named “Anus”. I thought he deserved mercy. And I had a student in my class named “Robin Robin Robin”. Yes, first, middle, and surname were all “Robin”. Nice guy also. > [@Alias](#): > > Well, my mother went to school with a girl named Godzilla, and knew more than one girl named Female because their parents couldn’t be bothered to give her a proper name. I don’t see the big deal in at least monitoring what you name your children in order to protect them. What’s the big deal? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/143 "2005-08-09T00:32:02Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > This is interesting. I knew about the Hispanic tradition of women keeping their maiden names after marriage, but I was under the impression that in the rest of Europe the tradition was similar to the Anglo-American one. In my line of work I’m constantly discovering new naming traditions - when I started working with a clientele that was more Asian, I discovered that many Asian women don’t take their husband’s last names at marriage, either. And then there’s India, which is apparently its very own ball of wax… [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=164033&highlight=Indian](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=164033&highlight=Indian) Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/144 "2005-08-09T11:47:38Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > In my line of work I’m constantly discovering new naming traditions - when I started working with a clientele that was more Asian, I discovered that many Asian women don’t take their husband’s last names at marriage, either. > > And then there’s India, which is apparently its very own ball of wax… > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=164033&highlight=Indian](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=164033&highlight=Indian) > > Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal The complicated situation in India results from the fact that India is not a single culture and it comprises dozens of ethnic groups. Think of India as being like the whole European Union only even more diverse. In essence, there is almost nothing that can be described as “Indian” without further qualification. That thread must have been before my time, but if you have further questions about names in India, I’d be happy to contribute. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/145 "2005-08-09T17:02:25Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Denmark does have a list of approved names. Here is the list [for boys](http://navneforskning.ku.dk/personnavne.doc/Godkendte_drengenavne.doc) and [for girls](http://navneforskning.ku.dk/personnavne.doc/godkendte_pigenavne.doc/) **Little Known Fact:** This is precisely why _Beavis & Butthead_ wasn’t set in Denmark. > [@](#): > > You are not allowed to give your children a first name that could be to their disadvance and expose them to teasing by others. Better hope others don’t speak English if one is going to name one’s daughter “Bendie.” On the plus side, she wouldn’t have to think up a cool stripper name! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/146 "2005-08-16T21:18:14Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > But in any case, a married woman’s “social” name almost always is exactly the same as her legal name. If she chooses not to change her social name, then her legal name does not change; if she chooses to change her social name, then her legal name also changes. > > Of course, there is nothing in U.S. law or custom to stop a woman from doing what is apparently done in France, which is to change her social name, but keep her legal name the same, and there are some women who do do that, but it seems to me that this is quite rare. Such cases would be noted as being out of the norm. Actually, I think this is not too terribly uncommon among professional women. At least, I’m thinking of where each name is used in its own context. In professional contexts, Mr. Gregor’s wife may still be “Dr. Haffensass,” but in other social contexts, she may be “Mrs. Gregor.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/147 "2005-08-17T12:49:43Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Actually, I think this is not too terribly uncommon among professional women. At least, I’m thinking of where each name is used in its own context. In professional contexts, Mr. Gregor’s wife may still be “Dr. Haffensass,” but in other social contexts, she may be “Mrs. Gregor.” In these cases, I think it’s might be more common for a woman’s “married” name to be her legal name and her maiden name remain her professional name, but not her legal name. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/148 "2005-08-17T20:40:29Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > In these cases, I think it’s might be more common for a woman’s “married” name to be her legal name and her maiden name remain her professional name, but not her legal name. I’m not sure about that. I respond to my “married” name although the only time I come close to using it myself is on invitations, etc from “Mr & Mrs”. But my employer is only going to use one name for me, and that name has to be the one on my driver’s license, social security card and bank account (if I want direct deposit). If I’m using it for work, social security, driver’s license and bank accounts ( and all the other things associated with them), then I guess that’s my legal name. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/149 "2005-08-18T02:25:22Z")
Y’see, there is another of those “different” things. Someone from the cultures where a woman’s legal name is her birth name own no matter what her station in life could argue that there’s something seriously wrong with a society where she’s expected to change her legal name upon marriage. It’s just _different_, not an appalling violation of basic human rights. Same deal with the baby names. It’s **not** a slippery slope to fascism, it’s a different way of organizing things, and calling it fascistic is disrespectful to the victims of fascism. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/150 "2005-08-18T03:18:35Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The complicated situation in India results from the fact that India is not a single culture and it comprises dozens of ethnic groups. Think of India as being like the whole European Union only even more diverse. In essence, there is almost nothing that can be described as “Indian” without further qualification. Oh, I know that generally, and I learn new stuff about India all the time - probably 2/3 of the people I do immigration work for these days are Indian, so I’ve seen all sorts of quirks. It just would have been nice to have some predictable way to figure out how people’s names would change in different situations - it would make for a lot less editing of legal documents after the fact. 🙂 (And I can’t tell you how many debates I’ve had with clients that in any other context, I’d ordinarily be happy to use whatever nickname or version of their name they prefer, but the visa folks are demanding, and if their documents each have a different version of their name on them, bureaucratic hell will ensue.) > [@](#): > > That thread must have been before my time, but if you have further questions about names in India, I’d be happy to contribute. Thanks, and I may well take you up on that one of these days. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/151 "2005-08-18T14:24:31Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > (And I can’t tell you how many debates I’ve had with clients that in any other context, I’d ordinarily be happy to use whatever nickname or version of their name they prefer, but the visa folks are demanding, and if their documents each have a different version of their name on them, bureaucratic hell will ensue.) I’d be curious to hear what kind of arguments they are making. Names seem to be a problem for Indians who see themselves as joining the “first” world. Many Indians seem to be pretty cavalier about their names, especially the spelling. There are a lot of Indians who are overeager to appease the Western world by simplifying their names. On the other hand, there are institutions like Calcutta University, who will issue certificates with only the “correct” spellings of Anglicised Bengali names like Banerji (Bandhopadhyay), Chatterji (Chattopadhyay), and Mukherji (Mukhopadhyay). > [@](#): > > Thanks, and I may well take you up on that one of these days. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/152 "2005-08-19T05:13:38Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I’d be curious to hear what kind of arguments they are making. Mostly they can’t understand why I insist that the remainder of their documents match their passport; they’d rather go by whatever name they use in daily life. The State Department, of course, thinks otherwise, and more than one client has been subjected to lengthy security clearance on visa issuance because the DOS thinks they may be trying to pull a fast one by using so many aliases. I mean, after all, how are we supposed to know that the birth certificate (if there even is one), passport, educational documents, and marriage certificate, each of which uses a different version of the person’s name, all apply to the same person? And don’t start me on the reversible order of first names and family names, or the common use of initials-only on official documents, or the birth certificates that list only the child’s gender (no name at all). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/153 "2005-08-19T11:24:26Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > I mean, after all, how are we supposed to know that the birth certificate (if there even is one), passport, educational documents, and marriage certificate, each of which uses a different version of the person’s name, all apply to the same person? And don’t start me on the reversible order of first names and family names, or the common use of initials-only on official documents, or the birth certificates that list only the child’s gender (no name at all). I have encountered these kinds of things too. One was with regard to a friend of mine, _born in the United States_, whose legal documents all had slightly different versions of his name. After finishing high school, he got sick of it and went to court to fix the problem. Another friend of mine ran into trouble when his father used a version of his name on a financial-aid application that was different from the name he was known by in his university records. Are you ever able to get the message across that they have to choose one version of their name and use it on all legal documents? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/154 "2005-08-20T15:00:56Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Are you ever able to get the message across that they have to choose one version of their name and use it on all legal documents? Most of the time,they see my point once I explain the issue. But every once in a while, though they profess to agree with me, they keep doing the same thing anyway. With the guy who was forced (because of the security clearance issue) to go to his home country consulate in India to get his visa renewed rather than taking a much shorter trip to Canada, it was all I could do to keep from saying “I told you so.” People, if your visa sponsor is hiring a law firm to do your documents for you, and paying lots of money for their expertise, you might want to consider listening to them. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/155 "2005-08-20T18:37:29Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Apparently it traumatized neither [Dr. Spock](http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~adoption/images/pgillus/Spock.jpg) nor [Mr. Spock](http://loja.kkn.net/~i2uiy/spock.jpg). 😉 > > I find the larger concept to be upsetting- no state should have the right to interfere with what a family choses to do with naming their child. To impose rigidly defined parameters and approved names smacks of Facism. > > It really does. > > My two cents. > > Cartooniverse Do you really believe this? Cuz I’m doubtful you do based on what you posted [a couple of years ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2718880&postcount=102). ---
**Author:** ![inkubo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@inkubo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inkubo)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/156 "2005-08-20T19:03:50Z")
I guess there aren’t any [Mormons](http://www.wesclark.com/ubn/) in Europe. Or at least they’re a bit more level headed in their naming conventions. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893/157 "2005-08-28T12:43:05Z")
Yes, I really do - and good Searching. 😉 Nobody went to a government agency and legally forced those people to change their daughter’s name from Bagina. There was no penalty levied against the mother and father for chosing that name. All I said was that my wife chose to have the child’s name _pronounced_ in a way that did not make every young girl in the room cringe all day. A far cry from facism, IMHO. When she is of age to do so, it is entirely possible that young Bagina will scamper off to the Sullivan County Courthouse ( conveniently located in bucolic and rustic downtown Monticello, New York ) and have her name legally changed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-names-in-europe/314893.md?page=7)