# Illegal people; illegal activities **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760 "2010-05-17T14:29:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/21 "2010-05-17T23:33:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If you don’t think those laws need to be observed, wouldn’t it we better if we just got rid of the laws? Well, as Blaron pointed out, not all laws are created equal. To take speeding as an example: I do think the government has a valid interest in regulating the speeds that vehicles travel at. There are times when the situation you are in would justify the breaking of this minor law. Rather than have to institute a regime that would be able to enforce a totalitarian regime on speed limits, and authorize their removal when the situation warrants, I’d rather have lax enforcement. While it does allow some persons to get away with breaking the law without need, it also allows persons with a valid reason to break it. Meanwhile, traffic does move at a fairly regular pace. I am sure without the regime we have, I’d have been passed at much higher speeds on my way to work today. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/22 "2010-05-18T02:29:59Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Personally, I distinguish between illegal activities which are malum in se (wrong by its very nature) and [malum prohibitum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_prohibitum) (wrong because the law says so). > > Cockfighting is a deliberate infliction of cruelty on other lifeforms, and thus I would call it bad by its very nature. Even if it was legalized, I’d still call it wrong. > > The mere fact that someone has crossed an arbitrary border in violation of the law is not, in and of itself, an evil act, even if there are laws against it. I’d also include marijuana use as being _malum prohibitum_ and not _malum in se_. > > I’m also bothered by labeling people as “Illegals.” I feel like it’s a way of subtly dehumanizing them by defining the totality of their existence as illegality, and ignoring the fact that they are flesh and blood human beings who have other traits. That was beautifully said. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/23 "2010-05-18T06:22:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, what do illegals do while in our country, **Ralph**? Do they gather in bands to pillage and plunder? Or just wander aimlessly about the countryside, pausing on occasion to beg for small change? > > They work. They work _hard_! Ever done any stoop labor? Waddle like a duck down a row of produce, harvesting by hand? Got any idea how hard that is, how grueling, how painful? Any idea how ill-paid it is? > > They are here because you want them here, either that, or you want to spend ten dollars a head for iceberg lettuce. The fact that they are illegal fits very neatly into the agenda of the people who exploit their labor: they can’t bitch. They have no rights, cannot form unions, cannot negotiate. The people who exploit their labor have not the slightest desire to see any sort of legitimacy for these people, they _want_ them illegal, for precisely these reasons. > > You want family values? They got ‘em. Risking their lives to live in a hostile country, working brutally hard for chump change, all to send money to wives they cannot sleep with, children they cannot touch. Initiative, good ol’ fashioned gumption? Try walking across the Sonoran Desert for a couple days, and put your life in the hands of a stranger who may get you to Tucson, may get you lost in Hell, or may just murder you after he takes your money. _That’s_ some fucking gumption. Hard working? Oh, yeah. > > American values? They got them. We don’t. So by your bizarre reasoning, because they committed a crime (illegal entry), they are heroes? So it is OK that they get free medical care at hospital emergency rooms (while you and I have to pay for it)? Its OK that they drive unregistered, uninsured cars? That they pay no income taxes, and send their money back home? Yeah, their labor really benefits me! I pay higher taxes, and the illegals pay no taxes..sounds totally fair! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/24 "2010-05-18T07:03:05Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > So it is OK that they get free medical care at hospital emergency rooms (while you and I have to pay for it)? In the first place, it turns out that on average [they actually pay more than you do:](http://www.ocregister.com/news/olamendi-173497-immigrants-mexico.html) > [@](#): > > A 2006 RAND Corporation study found that foreign-born residents, including undocumented immigrants, use less public funding and pay more out-of-pocket costs for health care than native-born residents. In the second place, it sounds as though your beef isn’t really with undocumented immigrants but with poor people in general, i.e., anyone who meets the income qualifications for programs like Medicaid and thus “gets free medical care while you and I have to pay for it”. If undocumented immigrants are poor enough to qualify for Medicaid and its ilk, then would denying them treatment really serve any useful purpose? Especially considering that most of them work pretty hard, we’d be kind of shooting our own economy in the foot if we just let them be incapacitated by treatable injuries or diseases rather than treating them. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Its OK that they drive unregistered, uninsured cars? Nope, that’s illegal. As noted previously, nobody in this thread is arguing that people should be allowed to do **any** illegal thing just because they’re getting away with **one particular** illegal thing (which they get away with because we the consumers reward employers who keep prices low for us by hiring illegal and therefore cheap labor). > [@ralph124c](#): > > That they pay no income taxes, and send their money back home? Lots of them [do pay income taxes](http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm): > [@](#): > > The Internal Revenue Service doesn’t have an estimate of how many illegal immigrants pay income tax. > > But one indicator is the 9 million W-2 forms with mismatched names and Social Security numbers it received in 2004. The IRS said the W-2 forms with invalid Social Security numbers reported about $53 billion in wages and about three-fourths of that, $40 billion in wages, had taxes withheld. > > The IRS also has been issuing Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers, or ITINs, for 12 years to foreigners without a Social Security number. It’s believed that many workers who seek the ITINs are in the country illegally, and the IRS reported that there were 2.5 million tax returns filed with an ITIN in 2004. > > In 2006, then IRS Commission Mark Everson told Congress that “many illegal aliens, utilizing ITINs, have been reporting tax liability to the tune of almost $50 billion from 1996 to 2003.” As for sending money back home, why on earth shouldn’t they? Increasing prosperity in their home countries has [benefits for us as well](http://international-financial-affairs.suite101.com/article.cfm/immigrant-remittances): > [@](#): > > Remittances help increase demand for U.S. exports, giving the people in the developing country extra funds to consume things they would not have been able to afford otherwise. They bring in money to U.S. banks or funds transfer companies in the form of fees for those services. They can help to stabilize the developing countries’ economies, making it safer for U.S. investors in those countries. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/25 "2010-05-18T10:19:48Z")
If and to the extent that cockfighting is legal in the home country… …if it’s ok to be here, why isn’t it ok to bring your laws and values with you? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/26 "2010-05-18T10:59:14Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > If and to the extent that cockfighting is legal in the home country… > > …if it’s ok to be here, why isn’t it ok to bring your laws and values with you? “He cut his way through the prose with a sharpened pair of non-sequiteurs.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/27 "2010-05-18T11:26:35Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > “He cut his way through the prose with a sharpened pair of non-sequiteurs.” Allow me to refine the premise then… How about… if it’s ok to be here because you don’t believe that the US has a right to control its borders. or … if it’s ok to be here because you don’t think that Arizona has a right to enforce it’s laws. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/28 "2010-05-18T13:18:17Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > or … if it’s ok to be here because you don’t think that Arizona has a right to enforce it’s laws. I was thinking this morning, what has happened to those Tenth Amendment zealots who go on and on about the Federal government having limited, enumerated powers, and the Constitution only allows the Feds to exercise those powers? Well, guess what: the Constitution says matters of immigration are the business of the Federal government, and NOT the state. Why, oh why, will defenders of the Tenth Amendment not speak out about how Arizona is usurping the intent of the Founders? Where are the teabaggers who will defend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, by speaking out against Arizona’s unconstitutional power grabs? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/29 "2010-05-18T13:20:46Z")
Except illegals aren’t here because they want to make some sort of philosophical point about the right of a country to control its borders. They’re here because there’s no work in Mexico, and plenty of work in the US. Why is there plenty of work in the US for illegals? Left as an exercise for the student. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/30 "2010-05-18T13:27:05Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > **Illegal people; illegal activities** Thank you for illustrating the often-missed point here so succinctly: The second exists; the first does not. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/31 "2010-05-18T13:41:46Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > So by your bizarre reasoning, because they committed a crime (illegal entry), they are heroes? So it is OK that they get free medical care at hospital emergency rooms (while you and I have to pay for it)? Its OK that they drive unregistered, uninsured cars? That they pay no income taxes, and send their money back home? > Yeah, their labor really benefits me! I pay higher taxes, and the illegals pay no taxes..sounds totally fair! That last thing you said there has been debunked over and over and over on this board. I know you’ve seen it, so why do you keep spreading the lie? And as for “free medical care” I don’t know where they’re getting that but they ain’t ALL getting it or my Mig wouldn’t be paying several thousand dollars in medical costs from his last ER visit. They don’t all drive either, and believe me, I should know since I have to tote him all over town for work in my registered insured vehicle (work where he pays taxes, yes and I get to do the calculating, saving and paying in without the bonus EIC stuff like all my friends get) and it’s quite frankly nobody’s business where we send our extra money, but if his mama says they have no food we’re going to send what we can. Some spend it on hookers and blow, some contribute to their churches. We give money to feed and clothe people who don’t have any money or work. Sometimes it’s for people HERE, sometimes its for people in Mexico. It’s not your business what we do with OUR money. My Mig works seven days a week, seventy plus hours cleaning out yards, digging ditches, roofing houses, building or repairing homes, and whatever else they can’t find an American to do. He busts his tail every day and he doesn’t get ANYTHING free here so please PLEASE stop passing off these lies as truth. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/32 "2010-05-18T13:57:56Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > If and to the extent that cockfighting is legal in the home country… > > …if it’s ok to be here, why isn’t it ok to bring your laws and values with you? The last major cockfighting ring in Tennessee (the largest arrest in the U.S) , where I believe over a hundred people were arrested, was **all** American. Like hot dogs and apple pie. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/33 "2010-05-18T14:06:47Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > My Mig works seven days a week, seventy plus hours cleaning out yards, digging ditches, roofing houses, building or repairing homes, and whatever else they can’t find an American to do. He busts his tail every day and he doesn’t get ANYTHING free here so please PLEASE stop passing off these lies as truth. Gee, this comes off like you’re talking about a dog or something. I dunno, I think the illegals should go home. All of them. It’s not about taxes or money, it’s about fairness. If we grant them amnesty, we should grant everyone who is waiting to be an American citizen amnesty. We can have an amnesty orgy. The businesses that hire them should be crucified (not literally, just legally), too. We need to send, as humanely as humanly possible, the illegals back home to their country of origin. I’m as liberal as they come but, dude, we have terrorist attacks on the U.S and NOW you choose to want to let the illegals in? This isn’t 1995 - if it was I’d still be enjoying \*Family Matters \*and _Full House_ every Friday; it’s 2010 where we already had a bunch of terror attacks by naturalized citizens. It doesn’t make sense to, in response, grant amnesty to people who could potentially harm the U.S. We need to carefully look at everyone who is going to become a citizen and filter the criminals out and that is not going to happen with a granting millions of people ‘magical amnesty’. And The time to grant the illegals amnesty was BEFORE September 2001 not now. What happened in the 60? 70s? 80s? 90s? Why wasn’t this problem solved before we have people coming in from planes trying to bomb cities? It’s common sense: they have to go home. What else would you suggest? I mean, really? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/34 "2010-05-18T14:15:00Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > So it is OK that they get free medical care at hospital emergency rooms (while you and I have to pay for it)? ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS DO NOT RECEIVE FREE MEDICAL CARE. They are guaranteed emergency medical care regardless of their ability to pay, _just like everyone else._ They still get billed for that care, _just like everyone else_. [QUOTE=Honesty] Why wasn’t this problem solved before we have people coming in from planes trying to bomb cities? It’s common sense: they have to go home. What else would you suggest? I mean, really? [/QUOTE] What the fuck does one have to do with the other? The 9/11 hijackers entered the US legally. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/35 "2010-05-18T14:29:34Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Except illegals aren’t here because they want to make some sort of philosophical point about the right of a country to control its borders. They’re here because there’s no work in Mexico, and plenty of work in the US. Why is there plenty of work in the US for illegals? Left as an exercise for the student. Part of the problem is [agriculture subsidies](http://seekingliberty.wordpress.com/2009/09/26/the-real-cost-of-agricultural-subsidies/) that we give to American farmers. Mexican farmers simply can’t compete because of this, so Mexicans looking for agricultural work have to migrate up north to find it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/36 "2010-05-18T15:47:46Z")
It should be ok. Wouldn’t the double negative cancel out? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/37 "2010-05-18T17:50:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS DO NOT RECEIVE FREE MEDICAL CARE. > > They are guaranteed emergency medical care regardless of their ability to pay, _just like everyone else._ They still get billed for that care, _just like everyone else_. > > What the fuck does one have to do with the other? The 9/11 hijackers entered the US legally. Illegal immigration has a lot to do with 9/11 insofar that the U.S has had persistent terrorist attacks since. The bar needs to be raised on who we accept to ensure that we aren’t letting criminals and potential domestic terrorist into the country. This is very hard to do if we enact a sweeping amnesty programs. The people here illegally need to be shipped home where they can apply, via mail or Internet, to come here legally. [QUOTE=Blalron] I’m also bothered by labeling people as “Illegals.” I feel like it’s a way of subtly dehumanizing them by defining the totality of their existence as illegality, and ignoring the fact that they are flesh and blood human beings who have other traits. [/quote] What should we call them? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/38 "2010-05-18T18:08:58Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > For those who think it’s OK to use your lawn mower to mow the lawn. > > Is it OK for you to use your lawnmower to slaughter children? Why not? Or another related question: For those who think it’s OK to drive 10-15 mph over the speed limit (illegal motorists, as I call them), is it also OK to rape and murder nuns? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/39 "2010-05-18T18:21:24Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > What should we call them? “Human beings of unascertained or unsatisfactory bureaucratic authorization to be present in this particular country.” And no, that nomenclature may not be shortened for the sake of convenience. The whole thing has to be said, every time, otherwise you’re dehumanizing them and kicking their collective dead mothers in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/40 "2010-05-18T18:30:46Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Illegal immigration has a lot to do with 9/11 insofar that the U.S has had persistent terrorist attacks since. No, it doesn’t. We haven’t had “persistent attacks” since 9/11, and certainly not unless you include homegrown terrorists. In any case, once again, terrorists are entering the country _legally._ > [@](#): > > The bar needs to be raised on who we accept to ensure that we aren’t letting criminals and potential domestic terrorist into the country. Raised to where? How? Who’s going to pay for the extra scrutiny? > [@](#): > > The people here illegally need to be shipped home where they can apply, via mail or Internet, to come here legally. Do you know how much it would cost to deport 15 million people? Do you understand that we can’t find them even if we _could_ deport them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760.md?page=3)