# Illegal people; illegal activities **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760 "2010-05-17T14:29:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/61 "2010-05-18T22:25:16Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d say yes. Let me ask you this. Do you think theres any moral obligation to respect what belongs to others? Do you think it’s okay to ignore your neighbors property line? After all, it, too, is an arbitrary demarcation. And when illegal immigrants fail to respect property rights, they can, should, and are punished for theft, just like anyone else. But crossing a line in the sand so you can do work that someone wants to pay you for isn’t theft. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/62 "2010-05-18T22:37:06Z")
Say, if I approve of cockfighting, does that mean I have to approve of illegal immigration? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/63 "2010-05-18T22:44:51Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Interesting… have there been any efforts to make it a crime? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/64 "2010-05-18T23:15:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re right about this. It’s unrealistic to think this will be done. But what we CAN do is: > > 1. Secure the borders > 2. Go after employers in a serious way. Arrest them and put them in jail. > 3. Remove any other incentive: in-state tuition, school for illegal kids, change the law that makes someone a citizen just by being born on American soil, etc. > 4. Increase the number of people who can come here legally. But make it impossible to even be on the list if you reside here illegally. I 100% agree with this except “change the law that makes someone a citizen by being born on American soil.” Isn’t that in the Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/65 "2010-05-18T23:18:39Z")
> [@villa](#): > > It **DOES** matter because you said the rates weren’t the same. I don’t care about your opinions on this. Just interested to see if you have any facts to back them up. But instead you are weaseling out and changing your statement. :rolleyes:Oh, please. If my argument hinged on the rates being greater for illegals, you’d be correct,and it would be incumbent upon me to substantiate it with a cite. BUT IT DOESN"T. If you want to muster up some manufactured outrage and peep up “cite” just for the heck of it, knock yourself out. But as far as a substantive debate goes, I’ll provide cites when they are fundamental to my position. Not for your amusement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/66 "2010-05-18T23:31:18Z")
[Judgment stands.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=497699) ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/67 "2010-05-18T23:35:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do they pay those medical bills, too, just like everyone else? Oh, no, they don’t. You’re okay with the ones who do pay their bills, right? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/68 "2010-05-19T00:02:32Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > You’re okay with the ones who do pay their bills, right? More okay. But not okay. No one should be here illegally. I’d love to bring someone here legally—who has been waiting on line—for every person we deport. (Assuming we deem that the the increased immigration numbers benefit us.) ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/69 "2010-05-19T00:06:34Z")
[How to solve illegal immigration](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN1kp1ggWyM). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/70 "2010-05-19T00:41:50Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m glad you asked this, because it gets to the heart of an important aspect. Any society will have a portion of its citizens who they will have to provide for in some way. Yes, the U.S. has millions of citizens who are dirt poor and can’t pay their medical bills. And I agree that we have an obligation to provide at least a minimum of care for them. But that responsibility does not extend to the rest of the world’s poor. Or even the rest of the world’s poor who manage to make it onto American soil. Immigrants aren’t coming here to go on welfare. The last thing they want to do is sign up with some government agency. Immigrants come to America today for the same reason our ancestors came here a hundred years ago - they want a better job than they can get back home. They want to go to work and pay their bills. I say we should let them. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/71 "2010-05-19T01:11:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do they pay those medical bills, too, just like everyone else? Oh, no, they don’t. So they DO RECEIVE FREE MEDICAL CARE. […] > > It doesn’t matter if the rates are the same or not the same. You seem to allow that some portion of them do not pay their medical bills. […] > > Oh, please. If my argument hinged on the rates being greater for illegals, you’d be correct,and it would be incumbent upon me to substantiate it with a cite. BUT IT DOESN"T. Your “argument” seems to hinge on trying to make an unsupported generalization about **all** undocumented immigrants based on the actions of some unknown percentage of them, and then trying to weasel out of your unsupported generalization when you get called on it. Your initial assertion was quite clearly attempting to point a contrast between illegal immigrants **as a group** , who according to you don’t pay their medical bills, and “everyone else” **as a group**. That attempt falls apart when you fail to show any evidence that illegal immigrants **as a group** are less likely to pay their medical bills than other people. In fact, as my cite in an earlier post noted, the data suggests that illegal immigrants, along with other foreign-born residents, rely **less** on free medical care and pay **more** of their medical expenses out of their own pockets than “everyone else” does. Yeah, you can still argue that we shouldn’t have to pay for medical costs for **any** illegal immigrants, even if we’re willing to pay for medical costs for some people who are not illegal immigrants. I don’t have a problem with that argument (although I don’t totally agree with it), but it’s not the argument you were originally making. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/72 "2010-05-19T03:22:18Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I 100% agree with this except “change the law that makes someone a citizen by being born on American soil.” Isn’t that in the Constitution? It’s not in the original text. However, the 14th Amendment cleared things up nicely: > [@](#): > > All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. There are various theories about what “subject to the jurisdiction [of the United States]” means, though. The author of the Citizenship Clause, Jacob Howard (R-MI) was a total fucking idiot, and wrote that the clause should not constitute a grant of citizenship to “foreigners”. The Supreme Court decided in US v. Wong Kim Ark that pretty much anyone born in the US other than the children of foreign ambassadors or other diplomats, or to members of an occupying force, were citizens. Including Asians and the rest of us darkies. Yay! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/73 "2010-05-19T03:26:32Z")
“occupying force”, eh? I can definitely see some leverage there… ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/74 "2010-05-19T11:36:41Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Yes. And?? So it’s a crime to enter the country illegally; it’s only a civil infraction to be here illegally. Makes sense since one could enter legally (visa) and be here illegally (overstay visa). Could a state enact legislation to make being in the state illegally a criminal offense? Maybe that is exactly what AZ has done. I don’t know…I haven’t read the bill…but then neither have AG Holder and the rest of the Obama administration. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/75 "2010-05-19T13:16:58Z")
Your username is most apt. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/76 "2010-05-19T15:16:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Most of the people ok with immigrants being in the US illegally are ok with it because they believe the current immigration laws are unjust, or that illegal immigrants provide a net benefit to the country, or because they believe that actively trying to find and deport people who are here who shouldn’t be is primarily motivated by anti-Hispanic racism. In other words, they’re idiots. I do not understand why so many people have such a problem with requiring immigrants to come in through legal means. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/77 "2010-05-19T15:27:25Z")
> [@](#): > > I do not understand why so many people have such a problem with requiring immigrants to come in through legal means. Because there aren’t any legal means. Admittedly stopping all immigration, legal and illegal, is a solution for people who think the problem is “I don’t want _those people_ in my country.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/78 "2010-05-19T15:31:56Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > In other words, they’re idiots. I do not understand why so many people have such a problem with requiring immigrants to come in through legal means. Because, again, they feel that immigrants from Mexico are a net benefit to society, and current immigration laws and regulations are set up to make legal immigration from Mexico next to impossible. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/79 "2010-05-19T15:48:18Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > In other words, they’re idiots. I do not understand why so many people have such a problem with requiring immigrants to come in through legal means. Funny how these idiots have articulated reasons other than calling the other side idiots. Funny how not a single one has said anything about legal immigration. What we object to is knowingly sending people back to a worse state than they are already in. And for what reason? Because some people don’t want them here. And we have to spend our limited funds to do it No, no, it’s because it’s illegal, you say. Yes, but why is it illegal? Would you argue that if we passed a law saying all people had to murder their first born child, would you follow it? Of course not. This law, as stated earlier hurts some people. For it to be a just law you have to prove that the benefits outweigh hurting these people. If the law is unjust, then those who follow that law are unjust. There is no moral reason to follow the law rather than one’s own morality. So all you’ve got to do is offer reasons why this law is just. Explain what is gained out of sending these people back that makes up for hurting them by sending them back and costing us money to find them. Give us something besides “B-b-b-but that’s illegal…” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760/80 "2010-05-19T15:49:10Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Because, again, they feel that immigrants from Mexico are a net benefit to society, and current immigration laws and regulations are set up to make legal immigration from Mexico next to impossible. while this exaggerates the point a bit, it’s very much on target. Yes, if you’re a Mexican pediatric oncologist with $750,000 in investments, or a research biochemist at a major Mexican university with an offer from Glaxo Smith Kline, you can find the skids greased for legal immigration. But if you’re an unskilled or semi-skilled laborer wanting to work in the U.S., without immediate family already legally resident, it’s nearly impossible to do so under current immigration law. That noted radical George W, Bush acknowledged this issue. Beyond that, if paying a certain fee and signing certain papers will get you to where there is good-paying work, are yu really expecting the prospective immigrant to distinguish between whether the fee and papers are collected by someone speaking a language you are not fluent in who is a bona fide U.S. Immigration official or someone, again speaking another language, who is purporting to be one who is in actuality a coyote? And take note that those who run businesses using “illegal aliens” generally are not the ones the law comes down on – they get at most a slap-on-the-wrist fine and are free to do it again. Nobody is, I think, saying, “Throw open the borders to every potential terrorist who wants in” – they’re saying, “Reform immigration law to be just to potential immigrants and to meet the labor needs of America, and stop penalizing the people without resources for seeking to better themselves.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-people-illegal-activities/539760.md?page=5)