# Illegal To Be Gay?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 18, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063 "2010-11-18T03:37:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/1 "2010-11-18T03:37:08Z")
I hear people say it all the time. In such-and-such a place (Saudi Arabia, e.g.) it’s _“illegal to be gay”_. The only thing is, that really isn’t the case. What they really mean is that it is illegal to commit homosexual acts.
Anyways, I have one simple question: is there _any_ place, _anywhere_ in the world where it is literally illegal just to _be_ gay? Yes, doubtless some places you likely could get arrested if you were openly gay (and for the sake of completeness, please include those too). But my question is, is it illegal anywhere just to **be** gay?
BTW, I am **not** debating the morality of such laws, if they do exist. This is simply a factual question.
Thank you in advance to all who reply:)
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### Author:  [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/2 "2010-11-18T03:49:48Z")
With the conditions you’ve required I guess the answer would be no. There are no countries in the world that use or have effective mind reading technology.
There is a number of countries that criminalize any and all homosexual behavior
There are countries that criminalize voicing or acknowledging you are homosexual.
I think it is still fair to say such countries have effectively criminalized being gay.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/3 "2010-11-18T03:52:51Z")
No. The kind of illegality referred to is the criminalization of gay sex, though the kinds of countries which would criminalize homosexual acts are not likely to recognize fixed orientation _per se_ as something that actually exists anyway.
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### Author:  [@SantaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SantaMan)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/4 "2010-11-18T04:29:51Z")
Of course, there was a time that it was sufficient to be at a bar known for allowing homosexuals, and and undercover cop could collar you for discussing opera. No actual gay sex as we know it was necessary. Associating with teh gay was sufficient.
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### Author:  [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/5 "2010-11-18T06:16:42Z")
> [@SantaMan](#):
>
> Of course, there was a time that it was sufficient to be at a bar known for allowing homosexuals, and and undercover cop could collar you for discussing opera. No actual gay sex as we know it was necessary. Associating with teh gay was sufficient.
Back in the late 60s the bar I used to frequent in Columbus, Ohio always had a bouncer at the door. Whenever the Vice Squad showed up (and the bouncer always knew who they were) a light bulb in the ceiling would go on, and everyone knew to stop dancing or in any way touch anyone. When the light went off again, it was safe to dance. I have no idea how much the bar’s owner had to pay, to know who was on the Vice Squad.
So it was still based on behavior, not orientation, but the behavior wasn’t even sexual.
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### Author:  [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/6 "2010-11-18T08:54:29Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#):
>
> With the conditions you’ve required I guess the answer would be no. There are no countries in the world that use or have effective mind reading technology.
>
> There is a number of countries that criminalize any and all homosexual behavior
>
> **There are countries that criminalize voicing or acknowledging you are homosexual.**
>
> I think it is still fair to say such countries have effectively criminalized being gay.
Wouldn’t the line I’ve bolded count for what the OP’s talking about?
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### Author:  [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/7 "2010-11-18T09:13:55Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#):
>
> With the conditions you’ve required I guess the answer would be no. There are no countries in the world that use or have effective mind reading technology.
Which isn’t to say they haven’t tried. Witness the [fruit machine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_machine_(homosexuality_test)), a device developed by the Canadian government for determining whether someone is gay.
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### Author:  [@Panurge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Panurge)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/8 "2010-11-18T10:13:18Z")
Anecdotal:
When I travelled in Iran I was told that simply _being_ gay was illegal. It was possible, however, to get a doctor to certify that you were “incurably homosexual” which apparently meant that you didn’t have to go to jail for it (unless you commited homosexual acts, that is).
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/9 "2010-11-18T12:36:22Z")
What does it mean to “be gay” without homosexual acts?
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### Author:  [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/10 "2010-11-18T13:13:56Z")
Being gay is a self-identification. I haven’t had sex in years, but I’m still gay.
You can be a Christian without ever going to church or publicly professing it.
On the flip side you can commit homosexual acts without being gay. The same way I know gay people who have had sex with woman, but that doesn’t make them straight.
It’s really all how one identifies one self
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### Author:  [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/11 "2010-11-18T13:15:17Z")
> [@Panurge](#):
>
> Anecdotal:
> When I travelled in Iran I was told that simply _being_ gay was illegal.
Told by whom? The claim would be a lot more credible if it came from, say, an Iranian lawyer, than if it came from some random guy you met in the street.
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### Author:  [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/12 "2010-11-18T13:29:33Z")
The USA in the 40s and 50s, under J Edgar Hoover’s heel? Ironic given that it is thought that he was probabably gay himself.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/13 "2010-11-18T13:35:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> What does it mean to “be gay” without homosexual acts?
Orientation is defined by attraction.
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### Author:  [@Panurge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Panurge)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/14 "2010-11-18T14:45:27Z")
> [@psychonaut](#):
>
> Told by whom? The claim would be a lot more credible if it came from, say, an Iranian lawyer, than if it came from some random guy you met in the street.
I told you it was anecdotal. I picked it up during a conversation on homosexuality between various locals, travellers, and me. The person who referred to this was a Norwegian traveller who had spent a few weekends attending queer parties in Teheran (with booze, drugs & fornication, too). Nobody called him on the statement, and I assumed it to be accurate.
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### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/15 "2010-11-18T14:48:43Z")
Yes the statements of travellers in foreign countries about that countries law and legal system are usually accurate.
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### Author:  [@Panurge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Panurge)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/16 "2010-11-18T15:05:11Z")
Gimme a break, please. I have already stated twice that it was anectodal. I don’t know whether it is true or not. I had absolutely no reason to doubt that he actually knew what he was talking about (and so far no-one here has brought evidence for the opposite). Several locals were there as well, and no-one protested the claim.
Is it really that unlikely for people to actually know something about the countries they travel around?
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### Author:  [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/17 "2010-11-18T17:32:17Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#):
>
> There are countries that criminalize voicing or acknowledging you are homosexual.
The anti-homosexuality bill working its way through Uganda’s legislature would require people to report to “authorities” anyone they know to be gay or lesbian within 24 hours of said discovery.
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### Author:  [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/18 "2010-11-18T17:48:07Z")
> [@Panurge](#):
>
> Is it really that unlikely for people to actually know something about the countries they travel around?
Yes. And not only are they deficient in knowledge of foreign countries; as is demonstrated here on a nearly daily basis, people are profoundly ignorant of the laws and customs of their own countries, though that doesn’t stop them from making baseless assertions about said laws and customs.
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### Author:  [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/19 "2010-11-18T18:03:23Z")
[In Jamaica](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Jamaica),
_Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or is a party to the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and being convicted thereof shall be liable at the discretion of the court to be imprisoned for a term not exceeding two years, with or without hard labour._
And it goes up from there, with ten years hard labor for consensual sexual acts between men. I’d say that’s worded broadly enough to arrest and imprison men just for being gay.
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### Author:  [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-to-be-gay/561063/20 "2010-11-18T18:14:17Z")
> [@Panurge](#):
>
> I told you it was anecdotal. I picked it up during a conversation on homosexuality between various locals, travellers, and me. The person who referred to this was a Norwegian traveller who had spent a few weekends attending queer parties in Teheran (with booze, drugs & fornication, too). Nobody called him on the statement, and I assumed it to be accurate.
Good Lord, I can only imagine what would be in store for a Western visitor caught by Iran’s Morality Police at a drug and alcohol-fueled gay orgy. :eek:
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