# "Illegals" and "invaders" should be moderated as hate speech in the context of immigration debates
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [June 9, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244 "2023-06-09T15:31:20Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 10
### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/181 "2023-06-10T10:32:26Z")
I’m getting the feeling that you’re incorrect.
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### Author:  [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/182 "2023-06-10T10:33:26Z")
Ding ding ding! We have a winner.
Why is it so difficult to consider fellow human beings as just that? The fact that by luck of the draw you were born someplace that other people might choose to find refuge doesn’t give you any inherent rights that put you above others.
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### Author:  [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/183 "2023-06-10T10:39:42Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> I’m getting the feeling that you’re incorrect.
.
How so? I got the exact same conclusion from your statements
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/184 "2023-06-10T10:41:24Z")
> [@Drsunflower1](#):
>
> I got the exact same conclusion from your statements
I’m now helpfully stating that, no, that’s not the case. What conclusion do you get from that statement?
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### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/185 "2023-06-10T10:43:27Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> I do.
No doubt you’d also object to a prohibition on the use of “wetback”, since that might prevent you from “accurately” describing a brown person who inadvertently walked through a sprinkler.
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### Author:  [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/186 "2023-06-10T10:43:51Z")
That you’re arguing in bad faith, basically.
Suppose that you for some reason would have to flee your home. Would you consider yourself an invader to the place where you end up?
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/187 "2023-06-10T10:45:02Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> > [@Drsunflower1](#):
> >
> > Then they have as much right to be here as anyone else, why?
>
> But it’s then less accurate to say they’re without papers, or undocumented.
The people with papers have papers, yes. The people who have specific papers allowing them to be in the country are officially allowed to be in the country, yes. Are you claiming that they also belong in your definition of “invaders”?
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> I’m not asking whether you think it’s the _least_ of the problems; I’m asking whether it’s a problem _at all._ I’m asking whether, given the definition of the word, it’s being used correctly; you can of course also mention whether you think it’s abhorrent, but you should first mention whether it also happens to be accurate to say that, well, yes, folks unlawfully entering the country in large numbers would, in fact, meet the definition.
It’s inflammatory.
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> whether we’re going to be a board that disallows the accurate use of a term is likewise a matter of fact.
We already do.
There’s a word beginning with N. It means ‘person who has dark skin, or is defined as a member of the group of people having dark skin.’ That is its accurate meaning. It is nevertheless banned from this board except as a matter of technical discussion; and rightly so.
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> > [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
> >
> > If the two terms are interchangeable in your mind, then why not just use the less inflammatory one? And if they aren’t interchangeable, then can you explain the difference?
>
> That’s just it: to the extent that I think they are interchangeable, and to the extent that others think they _aren’t_ — if, say, they’d object to “invaders” in a way they _wouldn’t_ to “illegal immigrants” — then I want to emphasize that, hey, maybe you should rethink that.
You know that it’s inflammatory, and that’s why you want to use it. There it is, in your own words. You didn’t try to claim that it’s not inflammatory; you said that that’s exactly why you want to use it.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/188 "2023-06-10T10:46:16Z")
> [@Drsunflower1](#):
>
> That you’re arguing in bad faith, basically
And I can say “no, I’m not,” and you can say “yes, you are,” and I can say “nuh-uh,” and you can say “yuh-huh.” It’s probably pointless to continue in this vein.
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### Author:  [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/189 "2023-06-10T10:46:40Z")
Read my edit.
If you go back far enough, we are all migrants. Even myself, and I can trace my family back a couple of centuries. But we all started out in Africa and roamed from there.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/190 "2023-06-10T10:48:14Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> > [@iiandyiiii](#):
> >
> > People don’t say invaders for migrants because they think it’s the most accurate term
>
> I do.
I don’t believe you. There’s no point to discussing this further.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/191 "2023-06-10T10:51:47Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> You know that it’s inflammatory, and that’s why you want to use it. There it is, in your own words. You didn’t try to claim that it’s not inflammatory; you said that that’s exactly why you want to use it.
If someone else finds it inflammatory — which is how Banquet Bear finds it — but doesn’t find another term inflammatory, then I’m not going to claim the former isn’t or the latter is, if I find the former and the latter to be equivalent; I’m going to bring to their attention that, hey, the terms seem equivalent.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/192 "2023-06-10T10:53:13Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> The people who have specific papers allowing them to be in the country are officially allowed to be in the country, yes.
Are there people who have specific papers showing nothing of the sort, or showing the exact opposite?
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### Author:  [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/193 "2023-06-10T10:54:09Z")
> [@Drsunflower1](#):
>
> Suppose that you for some reason would have to flee your home. Would you consider yourself an invader to the place where you end up?
Still waiting for an answer
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/194 "2023-06-10T10:58:40Z")
> [@Drsunflower1](#):
>
> If you go back far enough, we are all migrants.
Migrants is one thing. If you go back far enough, are we all _illegal_ immigrants?
Which is, I suppose, the answer to your retroactive “read my edit” question: if, in your scenario, I flee — where do I go? Do I enter a place where I’m legally allowed to go, or a place where they say they’re full up and I’m not allowed in and it’d be illegal for me to immigrate there?
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/195 "2023-06-10T11:02:59Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> If you go back far enough, are we all _illegal_ immigrants?
If you go back far enough the people letting your granddaddy in had that power by virtue of murdering the fuck out of everyone who already lived here.
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### Author:  [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/196 "2023-06-10T11:03:04Z")
That implies you have a choice. In most cases, people take whatever means they’re given to get out. That they might end up somewhere where people also have an opinion is secondary. I take it you have never actually spoken to refugees or migrants.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/197 "2023-06-10T11:04:11Z")
> [@Drsunflower1](#):
>
> I take it you have never actually spoken to refugees or migrants.
Your take is mistaken.
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### Author:  [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/198 "2023-06-10T11:05:34Z")
Then you probably haven’t listened.
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### Author:  [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/199 "2023-06-10T11:07:18Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> If you go back far enough the people letting your granddaddy in had that power by virtue of murdering the fuck out of everyone who already lived here.
Exactly this. It’s because white people write the history that colonization hasn’t been called illegal in this sense.
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/200 "2023-06-10T11:15:27Z")
People who were born where they live are neither immigrants nor invaders. I personally think it’s abhorrent to consider their living in the only homeland they know “illegal”, but that speaks more to current laws than to my opinion.
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