# "Illegals" and "invaders" should be moderated as hate speech in the context of immigration debates
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [June 9, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244 "2023-06-09T15:31:20Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/21 "2023-06-09T16:36:57Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#):
>
> But as for the term “illegal immigrant”, that is an utterly cromulent term. You can insist on any circumlocuitous euphemism you like, and it still describes someone who has _migrated_ to the country _illegally_.
Do you think that deprecating the phrase “all lives matter” derives from a claim that the superficial context-free semantics are inaccurate? That all lives do not, in fact, matter?
It is critical to understand how “illegal immigrant” has tended to be used, by whom, and with what implication or connotation. The semantics always includes all the baggage.
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### Author:  [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/22 "2023-06-09T16:47:47Z")
I was going to suggest “unlawful immigrants”, but crossing the border without approval is clearly an illegal act (as in against enacted laws).
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/23 "2023-06-09T16:48:20Z")
I fall on the side of “not equivalent.” “Illegal immigration/immigrant” did not enter the common usage as a deliberate rhetorical gotcha.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/24 "2023-06-09T16:50:42Z")
> [@Riemann](#):
>
> It is critical to understand how “illegal immigrant” has tended to be used, by whom, and with what implication or connotation. The semantics always includes all the baggage.
But, you have two options:
1. Push back.
2. Fall back.
Pushing back, you’re saying, yes, a crime happened (when it did happen). But you’re also saying that a crime didn’t happen, when it didn’t, and you can point to the laws and who passed those laws, and not a single Republican can offer a complaint about it. You’ve got them over the edge of the barrel.
We’ve all agreed about how to create and police the laws. They’re not random. It’s the product of all of our legally elected representatives, doing their best to find the least worst compromise. And if we don’t trust that system, then we’re saying that there’s no compromise to be had and we may as well separate.
Falling back and calling the people who have committed immigration crimes, “Deportationally threatened”…well, that’s just going to light up every signal in the listener’s brain that instinctually reacts to goalpost moving and gaslighting, and they’re going to feel like someone’s being dishonest and swapping terms around, to match their preferred world view.
And if the media starts to follow along and say, “Hey y’all, you shouldn’t say ‘illegal immigrant’ - that’s so mean! - you should be saying ‘deportationally threatened’.” Well, suddenly you’re going to have wide swathes of the general public becoming distrustful of the ability of the media to report fair and honest.
Now you’ve got an even bigger problem, because you’ve got two large sections of the country, splitting off into their own private worlds with their own imaginary reality.
In one reality, asylum seekers are criminals. In the other, criminals are saints.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/25 "2023-06-09T16:52:54Z")
> [@Riemann](#):
>
> It’s analogous to “a schizophrenic” or “an ex-con”.
From my long experience as a crazy person, referring to somebody as ‘a schizophrenic’ is STRONGLY discouraged these days. The correct phrasing is ‘person with schizophrenia’. The general feeling is that the first reduces a human being down to a diagnosis and will likely have negative effects on the patient. I would say more. But the recording is ending and I have to go back to work.
I agree with the OP.
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### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/26 "2023-06-09T16:54:22Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> referring to somebody as ‘a schizophrenic’ is STRONGLY discouraged these days. The correct phrasing is ‘person with schizophrenia’.
Yes - thanks, perhaps I wasn’t clear, but that’s exactly the point I was making. And “an illegal” is analogous.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/27 "2023-06-09T17:01:17Z")
Sorry, I’m on lunch break now. I meant to agree with, and stress, the point you made.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/28 "2023-06-09T17:04:34Z")
I can agree with “invaders” being banned as a term of use since it’s not the accurate term - invaders are actual military forces or intruders with hostile intent. So that’s a mis-use, I agree.
“Illegals” - I’m not as inclined to ban it. It’s merely a shortening of the term “illegal immigrants,” and has the same meaning. It’s like shortening "conservatives "to “cons” or “liberals” to “libs.”
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/29 "2023-06-09T17:04:55Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#):
>
> The second, “illegals” is not only loaded, but used in a way that is almost always negative, dismissive, and always fails to take into account the actual status (asylum seekers, etc) of the people involved.
Agreed with everything so far, but I also want to point out that it is also often levied at those for whom the speaker has no evidence whatsoever to believe that they are in the country without documentation other than the color of their skin or the language they speak. Often even at people who can trace their family roots to back before the founding of the country.
That’s why I consider it a slur.
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### Author:  [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/30 "2023-06-09T17:06:17Z")
I agree with the OP that “illegals” and “invaders” should not be allowed here. I think the “is it hate speech or not” categorization is perhaps a distraction. Opinions on that can differ based on where you draw the line - the terms clearly carry animosity, but there are much worse examples of hate speech.
We have plenty of terms that are moderated here that aren’t classified as hate speech. If the mods are balking at that label, can we at least agree that the terms don’t have a place on this site?
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/31 "2023-06-09T17:07:30Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#):
>
> You can or can’t decide that it is hate speech (doesn’t effect me, I don’t post about the topic anyway) but I think it is incredibly silly to claim that “illegals” implies that someone is “an illegal human being”.
In terms of people who have the moral authority to speak on what sort of language should be used to describe those humans who are considered unwelcome in a country, Elie Wiesel is at the top of my list. You can disagree with Elie Wiesel, but calling him “incredibly silly” is, uh, incredibly silly.
I am having trouble finding my source–but yesterday when I was looking at the origin of the term “illegal immigrant,” I believe one cite traced it back to 1940s United Kingdom, as Jews were attempting to immigrate to the UK. Does anyone else know the origin of this term?
That said, **is anyone arguing that “illegal immigrant” should be modded?** I explicitly and repeatedly suggested in the OP that I don’t think it should be; and if nobody else thinks it should be, further discussion of the term is probably not relevant for ATMB. I included it in the OP to distinguish it from the terms that should (IMHO) be moderated.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/32 "2023-06-09T17:12:17Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> I also want to point out that it is also often levied at those for whom the speaker has no evidence whatsoever to believe that they are in the country without documentation
For the record, the average person who is in the country illegally came legally, with documentation, and elected to violate the terms of their documentation and continue their inhabitance after the agreed period.
A person who came here without documentation is usually a person seeking asylum. That is legal and unconnected from illegal immigration. It’s better to use the term “asylum seeker” (IMHO) than trying to downgrade them to “undocumented immigrant”.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/33 "2023-06-09T17:16:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> That said, **is anyone arguing that “illegal immigrant” should be modded?**
Checking back to your OP, I don’t see you saying this until the “In short” section at the very end. Your presentation to that point seems more like it’s lumping it in than separating it out, with an argument like, “This one’s going over the edge, not recommended and should be put in with the other two to spare the heartache.”
It doesn’t feel like it makes sense to raise the topic, if it was irrelevant to **moderation**.
But I do admit to not reading to the “in short” section.
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/34 "2023-06-09T17:18:43Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> Agreed; except that I wouldn’t give immediate bannings even for “invaders”, except perhaps for thread bans, without additional information indicating that the poster’s problematic in this area. First use by someone without a history of such issues I think should call for a warning with an explanation of the problem. Some people are just repeating what they’ve heard/read without thinking.
Hopefully we keep this in mind for all such language.
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/35 "2023-06-09T17:20:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> That said, **is anyone arguing that “illegal immigrant” should be modded?** I explicitly and repeatedly suggested in the OP that I don’t think it should be; and if nobody else thinks it should be, further discussion of the term is probably not relevant for ATMB.
I suppose I was just reading that into it, remembering your implication in the pit thread suggesting that “illegal immigrants” _is_ deeply offensive hate speech.:
> When everyone from the CATO Institute to Elie Wiesel to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom’s advisers warn against using “illegal immigrants,” “illegals”, and “invaders” as slurs/hate speech/incitement-to-violence language, it’s clear that it’s deeply offensive language.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/36 "2023-06-09T17:25:54Z")
The moderators are discussing this question behind the scenes. Be patient; it takes some time to hear from everyone.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/37 "2023-06-09T17:28:11Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> Checking back to your OP, I don’t see you saying this until the “In short” section at the very end.
I thought it was clear from the title [“Illegals” and “invaders” should be moderated as hate speech](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244), and from this, in addition to the “in short” section:
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> First, “Illegal immigrants” is a term that is falling out of use among experts in the field.
> …
> **But I don’t think it should be considered hate speech**. I
> …
>
> “Illegals” is different.
But if it wasn’t clear to you, I trust that it’s clear now.
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> The moderators are discussing this question behind the scenes. Be patient; it takes some time to hear from everyone.
Thank you.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/38 "2023-06-09T17:30:29Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#):
>
> I suppose I was just reading that into it, remembering your implication in the pit thread suggesting that “illegal immigrants” _is_ deeply offensive hate speech.:
That was summarizing some websites I’d found addressing various terms. Not each of those cites addressed each term. I parsed them out in the OP, to make it clear which cite addressed which term, and clarified my own views on which ones should definitely be moderated and which ones didn’t need need to be moderated.
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### Author:  [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/39 "2023-06-09T17:41:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I agree with everything. The terms illegals and invaders, when referring to migrants, are inherently hateful and should so be moderated.
I just want to echo this, to add my voice in agreement that such terms should be moderated as hate speech, and as food for thought share the Supreme Court of Canada’s definition of hate speech, which I think is useful as a way of operationalizing hate speech prohibitions without making them too broad for our purposes:
> Hate speech is an effort to marginalize individuals based on their membership in a group. Using expression that exposes the group to hatred, **hate speech seeks to delegitimize group members in the eyes of the majority, reducing their social standing and acceptance within society**. Hate speech, therefore, rises beyond causing distress to individual group members. It can have a societal impact. **Hate speech lays the ground work for later, broad attacks on vulnerable groups that can range from discrimination, to ostracism, segregation, deportation, violence and, in the most extreme cases, to genocide**. Hate speech also impacts on a protected group’s ability to respond to the substantive ideas under debate, thereby placing a serious barrier to their full participation in our democracy.
Bolding mine.
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### Author:  [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/40 "2023-06-09T17:41:50Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> Hey, I kind of like that one. People with more experience in the terminology, any comments?
“Unauthorized” is generally going to refer to employment status. _See, e.g._ [8 U.S.C. 1324a](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1324a). There are plenty of “unauthorized aliens” who are lawfully present.
Edit: For what it’s worth, I generally agree with the OP. Accurate terminology is difficult, even without the political considerations, but “illegals” serves no real purpose.
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