# "Illegals" and "invaders" should be moderated as hate speech in the context of immigration debates
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [June 9, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244 "2023-06-09T15:31:20Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/41 "2023-06-09T17:43:36Z")
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> > [@thorny\_locust](#):
> >
> > Agreed; except that I wouldn’t give immediate bannings even for “invaders”, except perhaps for thread bans, without additional information indicating that the poster’s problematic in this area. First use by someone without a history of such issues I think should call for a warning with an explanation of the problem. Some people are just repeating what they’ve heard/read without thinking.
>
> Hopefully we keep this in mind for all such language.
That is our general policy for a first time use of an inappropriate word.
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/42 "2023-06-09T17:45:40Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> That is our general policy for a first time use of an inappropriate word.
The connection to Great Replacement Theory, and to terrorist murders, is what makes me think we should take this extremely seriously. But yeah, if moderators just shut it down hard, I’d be satisfied.
---
### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/43 "2023-06-09T17:49:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> As @Miller stated elsewhere, calling immigrants “invaders” puts them in a class of people against whom it’s acceptable to use deadly violence. It is dangerous propaganda, and its normalization is a step on the road to racist murder.
The SDMB should strive to be better than [Donald Trump](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770) and his ilk.
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/44 "2023-06-09T18:02:02Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> I can agree with “invaders” being banned as a term of use since it’s not the accurate term - invaders are actual military forces or intruders with hostile intent. So that’s a mis-use, I agree.
>
> “Illegals” - I’m not as inclined to ban it. It’s merely a shortening of the term “illegal immigrants,” and has the same meaning. It’s like shortening "conservatives "to “cons” or “liberals” to “libs.”
That it’s a shortening doesn’t matter – the n word, after all, descends from shorthand/slang for negro (and its equivalents in Romance languages).
What matters is how its used and understood by its targets, and in my understanding (and personal experience) “illegals” is used as a dehumanizing, dismissive slur (i.e. “Don’t worry about them, they’re just illegals”).
---
### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/45 "2023-06-09T18:08:03Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> A person who came here without documentation is usually a person seeking asylum
Gonna have to ask in another thread about that.
---
### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/46 "2023-06-09T18:57:39Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> Falling back and calling the people who have committed immigration crimes, “Deportationally threatened”…well, that’s just going to light up every signal in the listener’s brain that instinctually reacts to goalpost moving and gaslighting, and they’re going to feel like someone’s being dishonest and swapping terms around, to match their preferred world view.
>
> And if the media starts to follow along and say, “Hey y’all, you shouldn’t say ‘illegal immigrant’ - that’s so mean! - you should be saying ‘deportationally threatened’.” Well, suddenly you’re going to have wide swathes of the general public becoming distrustful of the ability of the media to report fair and honest.
>
> Now you’ve got an even bigger problem, because you’ve got two large sections of the country, splitting off into their own private worlds with their own imaginary reality.
>
> In one reality, asylum seekers are criminals. In the other, criminals are saints.
Good grief.
Nobody’s suggesting the term “deportationally threatened.” Nobody’s saying undocumented immigrants are saints.
And we already have wide swathes of the general public distrustful of the media. That isn’t something that’s going to “suddenly happen” because people are objecting to the term “illegals.” That’s something that’s been a problem to some extent all along, and that has recently been deliberately stoked by some who are trying to convince as many people as possible to listen only to them, despite the fact that they’re “swapping terms around, to match their preferred world view” and often straight out lying.
> [@TroutMan](#):
>
> I think the “is it hate speech or not” categorization is perhaps a distraction.
I think that’s a fair point. Deciding when and whether a slur is hate speech turns into a tangle of language. Deciding whether using a slur is “being a jerk” may be simpler.
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> The moderators are discussing this question behind the scenes.
Thank you for discussing it.
> [@Falchion](#):
>
> “Unauthorized” is generally going to refer to employment status. _See, e.g._ [8 U.S.C. 1324a](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1324a). There are plenty of “unauthorized aliens” who are lawfully present.
Ah. I didn’t realize that it’s a technical term.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/47 "2023-06-09T19:10:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> I can agree with “invaders” being banned as a term of use since it’s not the accurate term - invaders are actual military forces or intruders with hostile intent.
How many cites would you need — of definitions that require neither a military aspect nor a hostile intent — before you’d shrug it off as mere accuracy and agree to allow it? Two? Three? Twelve? Or is there never a hypothetical point where it’d be okay to be correct?
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/48 "2023-06-09T19:14:10Z")
The question is whether it’s used to describe immigrants in a context that doesn’t directly or indirectly call on the hateful, white supremacist, violence-encouraging Great Replacement Theory. If you have cites showing that it’s used to describe peaceful immigrants without that sort of allusion, I encourage you to offer them instead of playing games around asking about numbers of cites. Make your case, please.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/49 "2023-06-09T19:29:20Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> How many cites would you need — of definitions that require neither a military aspect nor a hostile intent — before you’d shrug it off as mere accuracy and agree to allow it? Two? Three? Twelve?
For example?
---
### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/50 "2023-06-09T19:40:53Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> Nobody’s suggesting the term “deportationally threatened.” Nobody’s saying undocumented immigrants are saints.
No, but likewise, the average person of the 19th century didn’t say “cocksucker”, they said things like “tarnation”.
>
Sometimes, it’s useful to migrate the lingo so that an outsider can better understand how things look from the vantage of the insiders.
---
### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/51 "2023-06-09T19:44:18Z")
Seems like this is mostly the good ol’ euphemism treadmill in action. You see it with things like the homeless being changed to persons of unhousedness or whatever.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/52 "2023-06-09T19:47:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> For example?
Well, at a start, “invader” just seems to blandly refer back to the definition of “invade” — which I see lists “to enter (a place, situation, or sphere of activity) in large numbers, especially with intrusive effect.” Such a definition doesn’t, strictly speaking, seem to require that ‘intrusive effect’ — but so long as intrusiveness is defined in terms of being unwelcome or uninvited, we could maybe begin there?
Or: “to enter a place in large numbers, usually when unwanted and in order to take possession or do damage” — with the “usually” and the “or” working their magic, and with the clarifying followup example of _“Hundreds of squatters have invaded waste land in the hope that they will be allowed to stay.”_
Would that sort of thing suffice, or would it have to get even blander?
---
### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/53 "2023-06-09T19:49:39Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> No, but likewise, the average person of the 19th century didn’t say “cocksucker”, they said things like “tarnation”.
What has that got to do with anything?
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> Sometimes, it’s useful to migrate the lingo so that an outsider can better understand how things look from the vantage of the insiders.
And sometimes, it amounts to attacking a straw man. (As also is, for that matter, claiming that anyone objecting to “illegals” must think that all immigrants are saints; let alone claiming that everyone in the country was united and trusted the same news sources until “suddenly” people started objecting to the term.)
> [@octopus](#):
>
> Seems like this is mostly the good ol’ euphemism treadmill in action.
Yeah, there’s such a thing as a euphemism treadmill. And as long as people keep turning words into slurs (which will probably be as long as this species lasts), we’ll need a euphemism treadmill. There are a lot worse walks to go on. This one’s just part of being a responsible human.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/54 "2023-06-09T19:54:07Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> You see it with things like the homeless being changed to persons of unhousedness or whatever.
You claim to see it, but your only example (so far) is ridiculously imaginary.
---
### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/55 "2023-06-09T19:59:31Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#):
>
> > [@iiandyiiii](#):
> >
> > I agree with everything. The terms illegals and invaders, when referring to migrants, are inherently hateful and should so be moderated.
>
> I just want to echo this, to add my voice in agreement that such terms should be moderated as hate speech
I know the mods are already discussing this, but just for whatever it’s worth, I join the side that finds this kind of dehumanizing language utterly appalling. I therefore 100% support the OP, and I very much hope not to be disappointed by a mod decision that doesn’t directly engage the reality of what is encompassed by the hateful subterfuge of this usage.
---
### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/56 "2023-06-09T20:00:15Z")
I’m coming into this thread late, even though it’s only four hours old. Nothing to add since all sides have been set forth and the mods are discussing it.
So I’ll just say that your OP was impressive in many ways. Well-researched, well-reasoned, well-presented. You’re the Jack Smith of the Dope.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/57 "2023-06-09T20:05:20Z")
> [@Cervaise](#):
>
> I know the mods are already discussing this, but just for whatever it’s worth, I join the side that finds this kind of dehumanizing language utterly appalling.
How is it _dehumanizing_ to refer to someone as an invader? The definitions seem to encompass, y’know, humans being humans — entering a place in large numbers, say, with given examples mentioning, AFAICT, humans.
Where, in the definition of “invader”, do you find a requirement of _inhumanity?_
---
### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/58 "2023-06-09T20:07:42Z")
I said what I said and I’m not debating it. If you can’t see it, I can’t show it to you.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/59 "2023-06-09T20:07:57Z")
How convenient!
---
### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/60 "2023-06-09T20:08:54Z")
For both of us, because we can now move on to more productive endeavors.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244.md?page=2)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244.md?page=4)