# "Illegals" and "invaders" should be moderated as hate speech in the context of immigration debates
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [June 9, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244 "2023-06-09T15:31:20Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 8
### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/141 "2023-06-10T03:49:24Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> I suspect that’s the point. You don’t know who she is. You don’t know who any, or at least the vast majority, of the millions of people who you’re calling “invaders” are.
But — as Banquet Bear just helpfully noted — if I switch from calling them “invaders” to calling them “illegal immigrants”, that’s _still the case,_ right? I still won’t know who millions of them are, and yet the SDMB will presumably still let them be referred to as “illegal immigrants”.
We’ll still be saying that they’re the country illegally, and we’ll still make mention of entering the country illegally, and we’ll still note that illegal immigrants number in the millions; but we’ll still know as much or as little about them in general and their names in particular as we would if calling them “invaders” were also de rigueur.
So how is the knowledge relevant?
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/142 "2023-06-10T03:51:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> I’m not defending the use of the word invasion. I’m not obligated to provide any names
AFAICT, the status quo is that the term isn’t banned; if anyone is “obligated to provide any names”, wouldn’t it be those who want to ban a term?
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/143 "2023-06-10T03:56:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> If the two terms are interchangeable in your mind, then why not just use the less inflammatory one? And if they aren’t interchangeable, then can you explain the difference?
That’s just it: to the extent that I think they are interchangeable, and to the extent that others think they _aren’t_ — if, say, they’d object to “invaders” in a way they _wouldn’t_ to “illegal immigrants” — then I want to emphasize that, hey, maybe you should rethink that.
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### Author:  [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/144 "2023-06-10T04:03:08Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> if anyone is “obligated to provide any names”, wouldn’t it be those who want to ban a term?
What are those people providing names for exactly?
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/145 "2023-06-10T04:05:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> if anyone is “obligated to provide any names”, wouldn’t it be those who want to ban a term?
… **you** are the example.
When I asked you to show us an example of what the invasion or an invader looks like, you provided us with Francisco Oropeza, a man accused of murdering five of his neighbours.
You’ve been unable or unwilling to provide further examples.
So when Eva states that " typically requires the intent to take the place over by force rather than, say, find an apartment to rent, get a job, live, raise kids, etc", I think you have proven her correct.
When you use invader you aren’t talking about peopling finding an apartment to rent, get a job, live, raise kids, etc. You are talking about murderers and abusers and people looking to take over a “place by force.”
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> hey, maybe you should rethink that.
Why?
Why should I suddenly start using the word invader to describe an asylum seeker? Or someone crossing the border for a job?
I would suggest that its you that needs to be rethinking things. Because the OP laid out an extensive case as to why the term should be moderated here. And you haven’t made a case at all. You haven’t even been able to name a single invader outside of a guy accused of murdering 5 people.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/146 "2023-06-10T04:13:35Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> When you use invader you aren’t talking about peopling finding an apartment to rent, get a job, live, raise kids, etc. You are talking about murderers and abusers and people looking to take over a “place by force.”
I’m talking about both. This is me, right here, telling you that I’m talking about both.
> [@](#):
>
> You haven’t even been able to name a single invader outside of a guy accused of murdering 5 people.
I shouldn’t have to name _any_ of them: not the guy accused of murder, and not a guy who’s looking to rent an apartment. I’m telling you that, if they illegally enter the country, I can in fact consider them invaders _regardless_ of whether they go on to murder anyone, and regardless of what their names are.
If I tell you that someone is trespassing on my property, that can in fact be true if he also vandalizes my home and still true if he _doesn’t_ — just like he can be a trespasser even if he offered me a quarter, and can still be a trespasser even if he didn’t; he can be a trespasser no matter what his name is, and no matter whether he’s also a killer or also a guy who returned a library book a week late. None of the other specifics are relevant, and, frankly, it’d be weird to ask for such details if the question is “wait, is he a trespasser?”
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/147 "2023-06-10T04:19:30Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> I’m talking about both. This is me, right here, telling you that I’m talking about both.
…so you consider an asylum seeker to be an invader?
That an asylum seeker that has entered the country illegally is part of an invasion?
A simple yes or no answer here would suffice.
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> I shouldn’t have to name _any_ of them
I mean: you don’t have to **now**. You have more than demonstrated exactly what it is you think, and made a very good case for why the term invader and invasion should be moderated as hate speech in this particular context.
So well done you.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/148 "2023-06-10T04:20:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> None of the other soecifics are relevant, and, frankly, it’d be weird to ask for such details if the question is “wait, is he a trespasser?”
And that allows you to treat kids taking a shortcut across your lawn the same way you would treat gang members armed with chains and aluminum baseball bats sneaking in your back door, right?
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> I can in fact consider them invaders _regardless_ of whether they go on to murder anyone, and regardless of what their names are.
So a family of refugees desperately fleeing a hostile government, gang or government sponsored gang are considered “invaders”?
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/149 "2023-06-10T04:21:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> And that allows you to treat kids taking a shortcut across your lawn the same way you would treat gang members armed with chains and aluminum baseball bats, right?
Does it allow me to refer to both of them as trespassers?
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/150 "2023-06-10T04:22:59Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> That an asylum seeker that has entered the country illegally is part of an invasion?
>
> A simple yes or no answer here would suffice.
An asylum seeker that entered the country _illegally?_ What, exactly, do you have in mind?
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/151 "2023-06-10T04:25:03Z")
In your own home or among like-minded people you can say anything you damn well please-nobody is stopping you…or even saying you _should_ be stopped.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/152 "2023-06-10T04:25:19Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> What, exactly, do you have in mind?
… individuals that are fleeing persecution from their original country who unlawfully enter the United States through its southwest land border or adjacent coastal borders.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/153 "2023-06-10T04:34:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> In your own home or among like-minded people you can say anything you damn well please-nobody is stopping you…or even saying you _should_ be stopped
Yes, but are _you_ saying that it would be inaccurate of me to do so? I know I can say it; I know nobody is stopping me; I’m asking whether you think I’d be _correct._
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/154 "2023-06-10T04:38:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> individuals that are fleeing persecution from their original country who unlawfully enter the United States through its southwest land border or adjacent coastal borders.
But it’s the “asylum seeker” bit that has me wondering: does US law, at present, carve out a special status for them such that they’re here _legally_ while they’re seeking asylum? Are they allowed in — by someone with the authority to allow them in — in a way that other folks who likewise enter the country aren’t? What’s doing all the work in your scenario?
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/155 "2023-06-10T04:39:11Z")
I think that on this message board our standards should be slightly higher than “It is o.k. to insult people as long as, somewhere in the etymological history of a particular word or phrase, one of the definitions could be taken as innocuous’”
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/156 "2023-06-10T04:45:13Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> But it’s the “asylum seeker” bit that has me wondering: does US law, at present, carve out a special status for them such that they’re here _legally_ while they’re seeking asylum? Are they allowed in — by someone with the authority to do so — in a way that other folks who likewise enter the country aren’t? What’s doing all the work in your scenario?
> [@DHS](#):
>
> DHS has [announced](https://www.dhs.gov/news/2023/05/10/dhs-and-doj-finalize-rule-incentivize-use-lawful-immigration-pathways) the Circumvention of Lawful Pathways final rule. Individuals are encouraged to use lawful, safe, and orderly pathways to come to the United States. Effective May 11, 2023, the U.S. government will generally presume individuals who unlawfully enter the United States through its southwest land border or adjacent coastal borders are ineligible for asylum, unless they can demonstrate an exception to the rule or rebut the presumption.
> **[Obtaining Asylum in the United States | USCIS](https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-and-asylum/asylum/obtaining-asylum-in-the-united-states)**
>
> ALERT: Court Order on Circumvention of Lawful Pathways Final Rule On Aug
…they are presumed ineligible for asylum unless they can demonstrate an exception to the rule.
So the moment they cross the border, even if they are seeking asylum, they have “entered the country illegally.”
That’s the scenario. Exactly as I stated at the outset.
A yes or no will suffice.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/157 "2023-06-10T04:54:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> …they are presumed ineligible for asylum unless they can demonstrate an exception to the rule.
Per your quote, unless they can demonstrate an exception to the rule or rebut the presumption, they’re presumed to be ineligible for asylum due to having unlawfully entered the United States, and to that extent I’d in turn presume that they’re invading the country.
But — like America — that’s me making a _rebuttable_ presumption, and so I’m of course open to hearing an argument that they’re not.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/158 "2023-06-10T04:57:14Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> Per your quote, unless they can demonstrate an exception to the rule or rebut the presumption, they’re presumed to be ineligible for asylum due to having unlawfully entered the United States, and to that extent I’d in turn presume that they’re invading the country.
>
> But — like America — that’s me making a _rebuttable_ presumption, and so I’m of course open to hearing an argument that they’re not.
…so thats a **yes** , you consider asylum seekers to be invaders, and to be part of an invasion.
Thanks for clearing that up. Thats all I think we needed to hear. The term should be moderated in the context of discussions surrounding immigration.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/159 "2023-06-10T05:02:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> **yes** , you consider asylum seekers to be invaders
…asylum seekers who _unlawfully enter the United States,_ and are _ineligible for asylum,_ yes.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2023, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-and-invaders-should-be-moderated-as-hate-speech-in-the-context-of-immigration-debates/985244/160 "2023-06-10T05:07:46Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> …asylum seekers who _unlawfully enter the United States,_ and are _ineligible for asylum,_ yes.
…that would be _all_ asylum seekers who unlawfully enter the United States through its southwest land border or adjacent coastal borders. They are _presumed_ to be _ineligible for asylum_ by the government.
All of them, the moment they cross the border, are invading. Are taking part in an invasion. According to you.
You’ve made your point clear.
Lets moderate the word.
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