# "Illegals" as a descriptor of people -- considered hate speech or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 20, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934 "2019-08-20T13:54:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/61 "2019-08-20T21:06:59Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > I remember when the Republicans lost their second election to Obama, they held a conference on how to better appeal to Urban voters. > > One of the things they came up with was to stop referring to them as “illegals”. President Trump proved a lot of that 2012 post-mortem wrong. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/62 "2019-08-20T21:07:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are there any other imaginary crimes that make somebody a criminal? I don’t understand what you mean. Do you mean that immigrants here illegally is an imaginary crime? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/63 "2019-08-20T21:09:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Millions of people are, specifically, anyone who refers to them as “illegals”. That’s what that usage implies. If you don’t want to claim that their existence is illegal, then use terms which don’t imply that. > > A shoplifter is a legal person who illegally takes items from a store, and so we don’t refer to a shoplifter as “an illegal”. A murderer is a legal person who illegally kills another person, and we don’t refer to a murderer as “an illegal”. You could refer to them as “illegal takers”, or “illegal killers” (though it’s unnecessary, because we have other words that work just as well), but that’s no problem, because those terms correctly state that it was the taking or the killing that was illegal. But calling a person “an illegal” means that the person themself is illegal. So we should call them criminals, not illegals? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/64 "2019-08-20T21:13:41Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I don’t understand what you mean. Do you mean that immigrants here illegally is an imaginary crime? I have this same question. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/65 "2019-08-20T21:14:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > President Trump proved a lot of that 2012 post-mortem wrong. By tapping into the racist vote. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/66 "2019-08-20T21:18:40Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > Illegal as a noun is clearly used to describe someone not legally present in the U.S., as in, the moment they leave the U.S. they are no longer described as “illegal”. If it truly described their very existence as being ilegal the mere fact of them returning to their home country wouldn’t change that. And again, I suspect that whatever collective noun is used to describe those who are present in the U.S. after violating 8 U.S. Code § 1325 will soon be found pejorative: I suspect that the very calling attention to the fact that they reside here in contravention to US code is deemed not acceptable. Depends on context. _While_ they’re here, using the term can imply that they’re hardcore criminals or even non-human and that violence against them is acceptable since they shouldn’t even be here anyway. > [@](#): > > My life and theirs is not remotely similar: my children don’t have to fear my not returning home one day due to an ICE raid, for starters. If you happen to be Hispanic, yeah, they do. You wouldn’t be the first American, native or naturalized, scooped up in an ICE raid and held for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/67 "2019-08-20T21:29:23Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Depends on context. > > _While_ they’re here, using the term can imply that they’re hardcore criminals or even non-human and that violence against them is acceptable since they shouldn’t even be here anyway. > > If you happen to be Hispanic, yeah, they do. You wouldn’t be the first American, native or naturalized, scooped up in an ICE raid and held for a very long time. I don’t think the term means either of these things, despite some repugnant efforts to effectuate this. If it ever does, for real and for a majority of those residing in the US, I’ll grant a new noun is neccesary to designate those having this status in common. The idea that my life is in any way similar to that of an Illigal alien is ridiculous. Bad things happen to US citizens, sure, but they happen fairly rarely, and mostly will be remedied. As an Illegal, really, really bad things can happen to you any time. Without remedy. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/68 "2019-08-20T21:35:37Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > I don’t think the term means either of these things, despite some repugnant efforts to effectuate this. If it ever does, for real and for a majority of those residing in the US, I’ll grant a new noun is neccesary to designate those having this status in common. Unfortunately, it doesn’t need a majority of people to make a slur, just a plurality of bigots. > [@](#): > > The idea that my life is in any way similar to that of an Illigal alien is ridiculous. Bad things happen to US citizens, sure, but they happen fairly rarely, and mostly will be remedied. As an Illegal, really, really bad things can happen to you any time. Without remedy. Do you avoid speaking Spanish if you know that there is an ICE officer nearby? ---
**Author:** ![NorthernStar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c77e96/32.png) [@NorthernStar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NorthernStar)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/69 "2019-08-20T21:36:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Millions of people are, specifically, anyone who refers to them as “illegals”. That’s what that usage implies. If you don’t want to claim that their existence is illegal, then use terms which don’t imply that. Akin to “outlaws”, you mean - people that can (and, from the POV of a law-abiding patriot, perhaps even _should_) be killed with impunity? That sounds way too disturbing and extreme to be characterized offhandedly and lightly as a view shared by “millions of people”. Then again, it’s not that I can claim to have much of an insight in American minds from across the Atlantic. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/70 "2019-08-20T21:57:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you avoid speaking Spanish if you know that there is an ICE officer nearby? What would either a yes or a no signify? Let’s say I did, does that suffice to make my life similar to an illegal alien’s? I would posit it doesn’t - that significantly more is required for this to be the case. And for the record, the answer is no, not least because like a fairly large number of immigrants, I am not Hispanic. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/71 "2019-08-20T22:01:08Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > I am not Hispanic. Ah, so that’s why “my children don’t have to fear my not returning home one day due to an ICE raid, for starters.” ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/72 "2019-08-20T23:19:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Ah, so that’s why “my children don’t have to fear my not returning home one day due to an ICE raid, for starters.” You are missing my point, by miles. My point being, the life of illegal aliens has challenges legal immigrants just do not have. The idea that the life of legal immigrants is largely similar to illegal ones, even if Hispanic, is just wrong. That doesn’t mean that bad things don’t happen to Hispanics (many of which, by the way, are non-immigrant citizens of the US). And if it wasn’t clear: many Hispanics are not immigrants. Many Hispanic immigrants are not illegal. Many immigrants are not Hispanic. These are different groups. Certain groups in the US may want to lump everything together, but that doesn’t make it so. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/73 "2019-08-20T23:22:54Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I don’t understand what you mean. Do you mean that immigrants here illegally is an imaginary crime? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I have this same question. No, not “imaginary”, but if their only crime is their presence here, then referring to them in terms of criminality carries the strong connotation that if they’ve committed one crime, they’re bound to commit others – the kind of association we tend to make with criminals in general. It not only comes perilously close to condemning their very existence, it brands them as dangerous undesirables – or to use terminology popularized in recent years, as criminals, murderers, rapists, and drug dealers. This is exactly the connotation that certain political figures want to convey. Some people may use “illegals” in an innocent or unthinking way, but for others it’s an intentional term of art. As for the allegation that the sole concern of these figures is that some of these people are here “illegally”, one might note that even when they’re here legally and are US citizens, they are frequently discriminated against and invited to “go back where they came from” – even if they’re members of Congress. Some US citizens of Hispanic origin are beginning to [fearfully carry passports with them](https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/16/us/immigration-citizens-carrying-passports/index.html), and others [are having difficulty getting them](https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/us-denying-passports-to-american-citizens/index.html). It’s all part and parcel of the same hateful xenophobic subculture. I think pejoratives like “illegals” to some degree helps to promulgate that subculture. I don’t think it remotely rises to the level of hate speech, but it’s certainly distasteful and does nothing to defuse that kind of thinking. And while they may not be called “illegals” when they are not in the US, they are certainly called the kinds of pejoratives I mentioned above, with a corresponding level of fear and loathing if they happen to be coming this way, as for instance the asylum seekers from Central America were, who were not only called all those things but were also accused of carrying disease and being ISIS terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/74 "2019-08-20T23:35:30Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > You are missing my point, by miles. My point being, the life of illegal aliens has challenges legal immigrants just do not have. The idea that the life of legal immigrants is largely similar to illegal ones, even if Hispanic, is just wrong. That doesn’t mean that bad things don’t happen to Hispanics (many of which, by the way, are non-immigrant citizens of the US). And if it wasn’t clear: many Hispanics are not immigrants. Many Hispanic immigrants are not illegal. Many immigrants are not Hispanic. These are different groups. Certain groups in the US may want to lump everything together, but that doesn’t make it so. Stop fighting the preferred narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/75 "2019-08-20T23:57:55Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I don’t understand what you mean. Do you mean that immigrants here illegally is an imaginary crime? Pretty much. It’s against the law to enter the country illegally. But there’s no law that says a person is living in the country illegally. So people who say that people are committing a crime every day by living here are talking about an imaginary crime. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/76 "2019-08-21T00:09:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Pretty much. It’s against the law to enter the country illegally. But there’s no law that says a person is living in the country illegally. So people who say that people are committing a crime every day by living here are talking about an imaginary crime. Is there “no law that says a person is living in the country illegally”? I genuinely do not know. I would have assumed that it’s not legal to reside in the US unless you have legally obtained residency. But I do not know that. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/77 "2019-08-21T00:51:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s against the law to enter the country illegally. But there’s no law that says a person is living in the country illegally. If an act is illegal, isn’t it generally illegal to enjoy the benefits obtained through that act? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/78 "2019-08-21T01:00:21Z")
I would argue that that kind of nitpicking isn’t particularly pertinent to the discussion. Immigration laws establish the terms of a visitor’s stay, such as eligibility for entry in the first place, whether they have the right to work, and the allowed duration of their stay. If they violate those terms, or were never vetted in the first place, then they can be deported. That’s not what the discussion is about. The real issue is that the term “illegals” is a nasty loaded pejorative that carries the implication of future criminal behavior. I don’t think it rises to the level of hate speech but it’s a close cousin of a racial slur. Does anyone really believe that a nice white English-speaking business executive in the US on a corporate-sponsored executive work visa who overstayed his visa would be vilified and dehumanized as “an illegal”? Would he be yelled at to “go back where you came from”? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/79 "2019-08-21T01:51:41Z")
Oh come on, I don’t care if this board doesn’t think it’s hate speech, but let’s not pretend “illegal” isn’t a slur used against people with suspected Mexican heritage (and people assumed to be “Mexican” which is a catch all for all brown people with Spanish names) regardless of citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934/80 "2019-08-21T02:39:30Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > If an act is illegal, isn’t it generally illegal to enjoy the benefits obtained through that act? No. If I, for example, were to rob a bank, it would be a crime. But if I then spent the money I stole from the bank to buy a new television, the act of buying the television would not be a crime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegals-as-a-descriptor-of-people-considered-hate-speech-or-not/838934.md?page=5)