# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/181 "2012-07-11T16:11:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’ve seen reports that we share about 50 percent of our DNA with bananas, if that gives you any idea. > Again, this is jargon only used by creationists. There are tons of fossils showing one species evolving into another. I agree there are no T-Rexes with bird heads. > Yes it does. You just don’t like the implications. 😉 It gives me an idea of where you think you come from. But I assure you, my grandfather and all his grandfathers before him were all human. Are you telling me you think there was an ape somewhere in your ancestry? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/182 "2012-07-11T16:13:07Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > If the fossil record shows anything, its that there is a complete lack of intermediary fossils or ‘transitional links’. The tiktaalik was just a lobe-finned fish, and the ambulocetus was a land mammal with hooves (not a whale). Can someone (reef shark) explain to me how a creationist explains the fact that we have fossils of animals from millions of years ago, and pretty much none of the animals that exist today were around then, and the ones that were alive back then are not around today? This land mammal that we’re calling ambulocetus doesn’t exist anymore. And the whales that are alive today didn’t exist back then. And as you go back further in time, it’s always the same story - there is a different set of animal species at every big step, but the differences at each step are always small variations on what existed both before and after. So how does a creationist explain that, **reef shark**? Did God create Pakicetus, then a few million years later, wipe them out, and create Ambulocetus as a whole new animal? And then later, wipe them out and create Rhodocetus? And on and on, until he wiped out Cetotherium and created humpback whales to take their place? Why would God do that, instead of just creating animal species one time and keeping them around? ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/183 "2012-07-11T16:15:38Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > All it needs to say is “animals shall bring forth after their kind”, at least a dozen times. Because thats all I observe. Do you see dogs giving birth to non-dogs? You do know that the Bible is not a science textbook, right? Also, I strongly suspect that you have an interesting definition of what ‘biological evolution’ is. Would you care to share that definition? ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/184 "2012-07-11T16:17:06Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > And it quotes in the second paragraph: “Ideally, this list would only recursively include ‘true’ transitionals, fossils representing ancestral species from which later groups evolved, but most if not all, of the fossils shown here represent extinct side branches, more or less closely related to the true ancestor.” Please just show me the one you think is best. And? Extinct side branches are still examples of evolution since they are still examples of changes occurring. As far as “best” what exactly do you mean? My personal favorite? You asked for examples, I pointed you to a list of examples, if you want to take the time to refute every one individually be my guest. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/185 "2012-07-11T16:18:25Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > It gives me an idea of where you think you come from. But I assure you, my grandfather and all his grandfathers before him were all human. Are you telling me you think there was an ape somewhere in your ancestry? Actually, my grandfather was an [ape](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape). So was my grandmother. And come to think of it so are my parents. And my uncles and aunts. And my brother. And me. My ape wife and I will have ape-children. Assuming you and I are the same species, I think you might be a little shocked if you look closer at your own family… ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/186 "2012-07-11T16:18:28Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Can someone (reef shark) explain to me how a creationist explains the fact that we have fossils of animals from millions of years ago, and pretty much none of the animals that exist today were around then, and the ones that were alive back then are not around today? > > This land mammal that we’re calling ambulocetus doesn’t exist anymore. And the whales that are alive today didn’t exist back then. And as you go back further in time, it’s always the same story - there is a different set of animal species at every big step, but the differences at each step are always small variations on what existed both before and after. > > So how does a creationist explain that, **reef shark**? Did God create Pakicetus, then a few million years later, wipe them out, and create Ambulocetus as a whole new animal? And then later, wipe them out and create Rhodocetus? And on and on, until he wiped out Cetotherium and created humpback whales to take their place? > > Why would God do that, instead of just creating animal species one time and keeping them around? Do you know how fossils are even formed? By burial. Hence a flood. The bible mentions this. Did you know Sir Edmund Hillary found fossilized clams at the top of Everest? This backs up the Genesis account, with the mountains rising during/after the flood. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/187 "2012-07-11T16:19:28Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > All it needs to say is “animals shall bring forth after their kind”, at least a dozen times. And here is a perfect example of Creationists’ double standard. You demand shitloads of evidence that has already been provided, you deny that such evidence exists when it presented on a silver platter, and when asked to give _your_ theory you give us this. You can’t even answer a basic question about when life began according to the tribal stories you believe in. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/188 "2012-07-11T16:20:03Z")
When do you imagine this event, the Noachian Flood, occurred? Just a general guess would suffice, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/189 "2012-07-11T16:21:28Z")
> [@Rubixcube](#): > > And? Extinct side branches are still examples of evolution since they are still examples of changes occurring. As far as “best” what exactly do you mean? My personal favorite? You asked for examples, I pointed you to a list of examples, if you want to take the time to refute every one individually be my guest. I appreciate your input. I was just noting its own admission of lack of evidence. It says ‘most, if not all are more or less closely related to the true ancestor’. Thats why I asked you to please point out your best one. Thanks again. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/190 "2012-07-11T16:21:30Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > You mean a virus that turns into another virus? No, I dont mean that. Clearly the answer is that you’ve not heard of endogenous retroviral insertions. We can observe matches between inserted retroviral DNA in two different organisms and determine, on the basis of sequence and location matching, that those two organisms have a common ancestor. It has been done for many primates, including humans. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/191 "2012-07-11T16:22:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And here is a perfect example of Creationists’ double standard. You demand shitloads of evidence that has already been provided, you deny that such evidence exists when it presented on a silver platter, and when asked to give _your_ theory you give us this. You can’t even answer a basic question about when life began according to the tribal stories you believe in. The burden of proof should be on evolutionists. Nobody is asking to put God into the science books. Creationists are only asking for the lies to be taken out. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/192 "2012-07-11T16:24:14Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > No, I dont mean that. Clearly the answer is that you’ve not heard of endogenous retroviral insertions. > > We can observe matches between inserted retroviral DNA in two different organisms and determine, on the basis of sequence and location matching, that those two organisms have a common ancestor. It has been done for many primates, including humans. Matches between retroviruses? You are comparing viruses to viruses? This is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/193 "2012-07-11T16:24:41Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > The burden of proof should be on evolutionists. Nobody is asking to put God into the science books. Creationists are only asking for the lies to be taken out. So what is the truth as to when life began on this planet? _Are you afraid to answer this question?_ ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/194 "2012-07-11T16:24:46Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > The burden of proof should be on evolutionists. Nobody is asking to put God into the science books. Creationists are only asking for the lies to be taken out. Given that you have absolutely **zero** proof or evidence for your position, and Science has quite a bit for the other side, I’d say that the God-botherers are the ones full of lies. ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/195 "2012-07-11T16:27:22Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > I appreciate your input. I was just noting its own admission of lack of evidence. It says ‘most, if not all are more or less closely related to the true ancestor’. Thats why I asked you to please point out your best one. Thanks again. It doesn’t admit a lack of evidence, rather it clarifies that the list includes examples that weren’t necessarily successful. Closely related still means that changes occurred, and therefore represent evidence for evolution. And once again, best one? By what standard? The debate here is whether or not evolution is true, so if any changes are occurring it means that it is. All of these fossils are evidence, you claimed that there where none, which is evidently untrue. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/196 "2012-07-11T16:28:15Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > All it needs to say is “animals shall bring forth after their kind”, at least a dozen times. Because thats all I observe. Do you see dogs giving birth to non-dogs? Some of the ancestors to seals and sea lions looked quite a bit like a dog. Come on, dude. You really think that desert-dwellers from thousands of years ago who didn’t know the germ theory of disease, or that the Earth traveled around the sun, had some special insight into the history of life on this planet? And we’re supposed to just accept it- with absolutely no supporting evidence? All you’re doing is trying to pick away at an established theory, and failing in a miserable and totally predictable way- you’re far from the first to try this here. You’ve offered no facts that support any of your assertions. And you really expect us to believe that this old book, translated through several languages multiple times, has the truth about everything, just _because_? You’re not special, Christianity is not special, and neither is the Bible. Just another batch of mythology thought up by ancient people who were trying to figure out the world around them. Tons of mythologies like Christianity and the Bible have been created by people in world history, and most have disappeared, or all but disappeared. I see no reason to think that Christianity isn’t just another one of these bronze-age mythologies, that in a few hundred or thousand years will be thought of as an interesting if archaic and backwards set of rules by the majority of people- just like the pantheons of Egypt, Greece, Rome, and Germanic speaking peoples. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/197 "2012-07-11T16:28:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So what is the truth as to when life began on this planet? > _Are you afraid to answer this question?_ Again, Genesis answers your question. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/198 "2012-07-11T16:30:18Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Again, Genesis answers your question. Well which verse? I can’t find any that lay out exactly (or even roughly) how long ago it happened. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/199 "2012-07-11T16:30:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some of the ancestors to seals and sea lions looked quite a bit like a dog. > > Come on, dude. You really think that desert-dwellers from thousands of years ago who didn’t know the germ theory of disease, or that the Earth traveled around the sun, had some special insight into the history of life on this planet? And we’re supposed to just accept it- with absolutely no supporting evidence? > > All you’re doing is trying to pick away at an established theory, and failing in a miserable and totally predictable way- you’re far from the first to try this here. You’ve offered no facts that support any of your assertions. And you really expect us to believe that this old book, translated through several languages multiple times, has the truth about everything, just _because_? > > You’re not special, Christianity is not special, and neither is the Bible. Just another batch of mythology thought up by ancient people who were trying to figure out the world around them. Tons of mythologies like Christianity and the Bible have been created by people in world history, and most have disappeared, or all but disappeared. I see no reason to think that Christianity isn’t just another one of these bronze-age mythologies, that in a few hundred or thousand years will be thought of as an interesting if archaic and backwards set of rules by the majority of people- just like the pantheons of Egypt, Greece, Rome, and Germanic speaking peoples. Thanks for your input, all the best to you. Just remember the word of God will always be preserved, no matter how many apostles and saints they stone and crucify. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/200 "2012-07-11T16:31:20Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Miller and Urey tried to create life in a lab and failed. Nobody has come closer since. I’m really not going to bother with this thread, because we’re not going to see anything new that hasn’t already been debunked thousands of times before, but I will just address this bit of blatant lying on my way out. Miller and Urey were NOT attempting to create life. That’s just idiotic. They were attempting to show that the conditions prevalent on the early Earth could have led to the natural production of precursor molecules that are important to life without external divine intervention. In this, they were absolutely successful. Now, since then, we’ve learned more about what the primitive Earth might have looked like, and the experiment has been rightly criticized for not getting things quite right. Since then, many other people have repeated the experiment under various conditions and achieved similarly successful results. So your second sentence is just as much of a lie as the first sentence. Really, throwing around this much blatant untruth is unlikely to get you much credibility around here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=11)