# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/201 "2012-07-11T16:32:05Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Do you believe in the big bang, or what the bible teaches? Those are the only two options, unless you think youre in the matrix. What about turtles all the way down? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/202 "2012-07-11T16:32:15Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Thanks for your input, all the best to you. Just remember the word of God will always be preserved, no matter how many apostles and saints they stone and crucify. Really? Because quite often, it couldn’t even make the jump from hebrew or greek to english without getting fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/203 "2012-07-11T16:32:25Z")
> [@Rubixcube](#): > > It doesn’t admit a lack of evidence, rather it clarifies that the list includes examples that weren’t necessarily successful. Closely related still means that changes occurred, and therefore represent evidence for evolution. And once again, best one? By what standard? The debate here is whether or not evolution is true, so if any changes are occurring it means that it is. All of these fossils are evidence, you claimed that there where none, which is evidently untrue. Closely related means natural selection. Thats not the debate here. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/204 "2012-07-11T16:32:59Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Thanks for your input, all the best to you. Just remember the word of God will always be preserved, no matter how many apostles and saints they stone and crucify. Actually it’s not. We don’t have the original manuscripts and from what we can tell, there were various changes early on. In fact, as Bart Ehrman says, the early you go, the worse the copies are (because there were no professional scribes). For instance, the ending of gMark is a complete fabrication. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/205 "2012-07-11T16:34:06Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Closely related means natural selection. Thats not the debate here. Nope, natural selection is something different. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/206 "2012-07-11T16:34:38Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Really? Because quite often, it couldn’t even make the jump from hebrew or greek to english without getting fucked up. Its ironic that there would be so many attempts to mess it up. However, the King James version is the closest translation to the Septuagint. Every version after that was copyrighted, and therefore had to be 10% different. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/207 "2012-07-11T16:35:08Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Thanks for your input, all the best to you. Just remember the word of God will always be preserved, no matter how many apostles and saints they stone and crucify. Why should I take your word for it? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/208 "2012-07-11T16:35:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Nope, natural selection is something different. Try again. No, I was right the first time. Natural selection leads to closely related animals. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/209 "2012-07-11T16:36:09Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Its ironic that there would be so many attempts to mess it up. However, the King James version is the closest translation to the Septuagint. Every version after that was copyrighted, and therefore had to be 10% different. Ahh, so you admit that the King James version is not perfect- just the “closest” (do you have any evidence that it is closest, by the way?). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/210 "2012-07-11T16:36:18Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Are you telling me you think there was an ape somewhere in your ancestry? We’re all primates, so yes. Yours, too. But your implications of bestiality are _hilarious_ to me since my grandmother died a couple of weeks ago and my grandfather has severe dementia. I’ll mark that down as another triumph for your professed religion and its charming habit of going on and on about how people should love one another to the utmost while insulting and judging the shit out of everybody who interprets an ancient text differently or doesn’t share your beliefs. Looks to me like you’re trying to spread the word about Christianity but accidentally spread the truth about it instead. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/211 "2012-07-11T16:37:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why should I take your word for it? If you dont believe me, translate the KJV back into greek and then hebrew yourself. The proof is there, dont believe anybody based on word of mouth alone. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/212 "2012-07-11T16:37:53Z")
> [@reef shark](#): > > Do you believe in the big bang, or what the bible teaches? Those are the only two options, unless you think youre in the matrix They’re not the only \*two \*options. What about people that believe God was behind the big bang billions of years ago, and subsequently the evolution that brought us to where we are today? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/213 "2012-07-11T16:38:56Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > The proof is there, dont believe anybody based on word of mouth alone. Oh, the irony. Write this on your bathroom mirror, please. Maybe if you see it every day it will sink in. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/214 "2012-07-11T16:38:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We’re all primates, so yes. Yours, too. But your implications of bestiality are _hilarious_ to me since my grandmother died a couple of weeks ago and my grandfather has severe dementia. I’ll mark that down as another triumph for your professed religion and its charming habit of going on and on about how people should love one another to the utmost while insulting and judging the shit out of everybody who interprets an ancient text differently or doesn’t share your beliefs. Looks to me like you’re trying to spread the word about Christianity but accidentally spread the truth about it instead. I’d say he more spread the truth about himself. Not everyone who identifies as Christian subscribes to this fringe horseshit. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/215 "2012-07-11T16:40:04Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Its ironic that there would be so many attempts to mess it up. However, the King James version is the closest translation to the Septuagint. Every version after that was copyrighted, and therefore had to be 10% different. Is it your goal in life to be wrong about everything you talk about? I’m curious as to where you got the above factoid, though. Did you make it up, or can you provide a cite? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/216 "2012-07-11T16:40:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We’re all primates, so yes. Yours, too. But your implications of bestiality are _hilarious_ to me since my grandmother died a couple of weeks ago and my grandfather has severe dementia. I’ll mark that down as another triumph for your professed religion and its charming habit of going on and on about how people should love one another to the utmost while insulting and judging the shit out of everybody who interprets an ancient text differently or doesn’t share your beliefs. Looks to me like you’re trying to spread the word about Christianity but accidentally spread the truth about it instead. Im sorry about your grandparents. But ‘primates’ is just another invented term. Humans and chimps have 40 million different nucleotides, and 3 or 4 changes can be fatal. DNA is so incredibly complex, it only shows me that there is a common designer, who uses a common code. Kind of like microsoft and all its software. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/217 "2012-07-11T16:40:42Z")
\ OK, let me try one more time. **Reef shark** , in order for any meaningful discussion to go forward on this subject, I would ask that you please give your definition to the following terms: ‘biological evolution’ and ‘natural selection’. Please do not merely refer us to the KJV. Most, if not all, of the participants here have more than a passing acquaintance with that version of the Bible. Those who do, know full well that neither of these terms is defined in that anthology. So, as a fervent believer in your own ideas, I must assume you have terms that are defined by you in your own words. Please share them with us so that we can continue to converse on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/218 "2012-07-11T16:41:05Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > They’re not the only \*two \*options. What about people that believe God was behind the big bang billions of years ago, and subsequently the evolution that brought us to where we are today? And that doesn’t even take into account the countless other creation myths throughout history. There is absolutely nothing in the bible that makes it inherently more reliable than any other mythology out there. Which really begs the question **reef shark** why is your religion any truer than any other? What do you have to support that? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/219 "2012-07-11T16:41:34Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Im sorry about your grandparents. But ‘primates’ is just another invented term. Humans and chimps have 40 million different nucleotides, and 3 or 4 changes can be fatal. DNA is so incredibly complex, it only shows me that there is a common designer, who uses a common code. Kind of like microsoft and all its software. If this were the case, then why aren’t thylacines genetically similar to dogs? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/220 "2012-07-11T16:42:48Z")
Could one of the mods change the title of this thread again to ahve it accurately describe the debate at hand? I’m pretty sure we’re now including bankers, the big bang, and textbook manufacturers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=12)