# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/261 "2012-07-11T17:59:16Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Yeah, about that, I hate to bring it up… but I think He might not have done that either. 😃 What? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/262 "2012-07-11T18:10:45Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > As new Phorusrhacids appear in the fossil record over the millions of years, we’ve finally arrived at my question to you: without evolution, where did all of these new, distinct, increasingly-massive bird species come from? Which is closely related to my question. If you look at the animals that were around some time ago, it’s a different set of species from what we have now, and for each time interval that you go back, you get yet a different set of animals that were alive. Did God create, then wipe out, then create again, and again and again? But he changed his design only in small steps each time! It’s as though God has been tweaking his designs, making small changes at each step, as he learns what works better and what’s not so good. Is your explanation something like that, **reef shark**? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/263 "2012-07-11T18:19:43Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Did God create, then wipe out, then create again, and again and again? But he changed his design only in small steps each time! It’s as though God has been tweaking his designs, making small changes at each step, as he learns what works better and what’s not so good. But then the mistery grows. Dinosaurs/birds are better designed than mammals. Better eyes, better bones, better oxygen-to-muscle systems. Which stands to reason as they were created after mammals. Why then would God (nearly) wipe out the later, better design to let the older mammal design repopulate earth? ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/264 "2012-07-11T18:24:24Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > But then the mistery grows. > > Dinosaurs/birds are better designed than mammals. Better eyes, better bones, better oxygen-to-muscle systems. > Which stands to reason as they were created after mammals. > > Why then would God (nearly) wipe out the later, better design to let the older mammal design repopulate earth? Those raptors were just too clever for their own good, they kept kept flanking him, it made him mad. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/265 "2012-07-11T18:25:15Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Isnt that just a shark? Once again, it is marked as a transitional creature. > **[Transitional fossil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils)** > > A transitional fossil is any fossilized remains of a life form that exhibits traits common to both an ancestral group and its derived descendant group. This is especially important where the descendant group is sharply differentiated by gross anatomy and mode of living from the ancestral group. These fossils serve as a reminder that taxonomic divisions are human constructs that have been imposed in hindsight on a continuum of variation. Because of the incompleteness of the fossil record, there And once again, it is not only that one, it is clear that you still think there are no transitional fossils so I think you are not here to see the evidence but only to proselytize. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/266 "2012-07-11T18:25:59Z")
I’ve never forked over $$$ for pay-per-view, but if they’re going to show Illuminati v. Jesus it might be worth the money. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/267 "2012-07-11T18:28:15Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > But then the mistery grows. > > Dinosaurs/birds are better designed than mammals. Better eyes, better bones, better oxygen-to-muscle systems. > Which stands to reason as they were created after mammals. > > Why then would God (nearly) wipe out the later, better design to let the older mammal design repopulate earth? Don’t we mammals have better noses and better reproductive systems, at least? Are there any other advantages for mammals? The placenta has got to count for something. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/268 "2012-07-11T18:30:07Z")
Sunday, SUNDAY, **SUNDAY** In the Arena! A Cage Match!! Two Entities Enter, ONLY ONE Exits! **Illuminati vs. Jesus!!!** ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/269 "2012-07-11T18:31:30Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Sunday, SUNDAY, **SUNDAY** > In the Arena! > A Cage Match!! > Two Entities Enter, ONLY ONE Exits! > > **Illuminati vs. Jesus!!!** "You paid for the whole seat _but you’ll only need the edge!_ ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/270 "2012-07-11T18:39:00Z")
6 pages in one day? I think this thread counts as a post-bumping exercise. =P ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/271 "2012-07-11T18:43:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Don’t we mammals have better noses and better reproductive systems, at least? Do we? Vultures, for instance, have excellent smell. Have you ever seen birds copulate? It’s over in a second. > [@](#): > > Are there any other advantages for mammals? The placenta has got to count for something. What exactly _is_ the huge advantage of long pregnancy + live-birth + care for young over short pregnancy + care for eggs + care for young? I think a lot of women would rather lay an egg that came out more easily than a baby. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/272 "2012-07-11T18:45:30Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The “accurate” translation of any text from any other language is a rather subjective thing at best, anyway. Direct, literal translation of many phrases often don’t make sense in other languages, so translators need to have some freedom to interpret intent as well, which is itself dependent on social and cultural norms. Joshua, when the walls fell. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/273 "2012-07-11T18:51:43Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > What exactly _is_ the huge advantage of long pregnancy + live-birth + care for young over short pregnancy + care for eggs + care for young? Laying eggs is less stressful on the mother but giving birth to live young means less danger from predators and weather. If you’d like to read more about it, I found this [article](http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~blackbur/1999a-Blackburn1999-viviparity.pdf) on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/274 "2012-07-11T18:56:52Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Do we? > Vultures, for instance, have excellent smell. > Have you ever seen birds copulate? It’s over in a second. But that’s a disadvantage. The pumping action with humans serves the function of removing sperm from other males, therefore giving a better chance of passing on the genes of the male who does the pumping. Plus, it’s kinda nice. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/275 "2012-07-11T18:59:55Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > That doesn’t answer the question. > Why did he have to wait for a genius to come along? > Why are earlier translations, like the Wycliff bible, or later translations, not perfect? > > IOW what is preventig the Almighty God from writing clearly? Hell, if an omnipotent god actually created us and wanted us to know of its existence and what it wants from us, I don’t see why we wouldn’t simply be born with that knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/276 "2012-07-11T19:08:56Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Joshua, when the walls fell. Gilgamesh and Enkidu, at Uruk. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/277 "2012-07-11T19:17:35Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Laying eggs is less stressful on the mother but giving birth to live young means less danger from predators and weather. If you’d like to read more about it, I found this [article](http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~blackbur/1999a-Blackburn1999-viviparity.pdf) on the subject. Interesting, thanks. But the article itself is not so sure about the advantages of live birth. The one convincing advantage is , as you mentioned, temperature control. A womb can keep a more regular temperature than an egg in the cold or heat. I don’t see how protection from predators is easier. Both still need a nest/denn and protection by the parents. In the case of eggs _both_ parents can protect the eggs. The highly pregnant mammal female would be at a disadvantage, I would say. Although she is still more mobile than an egg, to get away from danger. What the article seems to be saying is that it just kind of happens. Sometimes eggs stay inside longer and longer. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/278 "2012-07-11T19:27:38Z")
Well, if one were clearly advantageous over the other, you’d think the disadvantaged form would go extinct, no? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/279 "2012-07-11T19:32:44Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Well, if one were clearly advantageous over the other, you’d think the disadvantaged form would go extinct, no? No, why would it? Only if they were in direct competition over sources, in an area they couldn’t escape. There are still plenty of ‘lower’ lifeforms around, despite there being vastly more efficient creatures. Oh, hang on. I interpreted that wrongly, I think. You’re saying there isn’t a clear advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/280 "2012-07-11T19:38:35Z")
Anyway, isn’t this vastly more interesting than: “And on the fifth day god created birds.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=15)