# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/281 "2012-07-11T19:40:12Z")
It’s threads like this that make me wish **Dio** was still here. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/282 "2012-07-11T19:50:21Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > That doesn’t answer the question. > Why did he have to wait for a genius to come along? > Why are earlier translations, like the Wycliff bible, or later translations, not perfect? > > IOW what is preventig the Almighty God from writing clearly? Well, obviously, He wanted many versions of the Bible, all slightly different, and some more successful than others… ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/283 "2012-07-11T19:51:14Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Anyway, isn’t this vastly more interesting than: “And on the fifth day god created birds.” I can’t wait to here about how “And on the 2,190,000,000,000th day, God created Terror Birds…” ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/284 "2012-07-11T20:01:46Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It’s threads like this that make me wish **Dio** was still here. Ah, hell no. This thread would be up to 48 pages by now and 98% of that would be them two going back and forth. Besides the people responding here have done a great job explaining evolution to **reef shark** he is just refusing to listen or learn. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/285 "2012-07-11T20:03:44Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I can’t wait to here about how “And on the 2,190,000,000,000th day, God created Terror Birds…” and on the 2,190,000,001,204th day they all drowned in the flood. Which reminds me. If so many species became extinct during the flood… What is the creationist’s “explanation” that apparently not all kinds of animals were taken on board the ark? Doesn’t the bible state that specimens from each animal were brought on board? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/286 "2012-07-11T20:06:14Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > So far, we have the textbook manufacturers, several presidents, school districts around the globe, individual teachers and administrators, 9/11 airline pilots, military personnel, WW2-era pearl harbor survivors, the entire government of Japan, the illuminati and the masons, scientists, “evolutionists,” Jews, Muslims, the papacy, and probably many, many more, and all of them are involved in a centuries-spanning global conspiracy to hide the truth of Jesus and creationism. Yo dawg, I heard you like conspiracies, so I put a conspiracy in your conspiracy so you can theorize while you theorize. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/287 "2012-07-11T20:07:33Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Gilgamesh and Enkidu, at Uruk. Darrow and Bryan, in the courtroom. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/288 "2012-07-11T20:07:35Z")
> [@](#): > > 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. hmm, I guess it does.. NIV, of course, God’s latest edition. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/289 "2012-07-11T20:10:53Z")
I ain’t reading this entire thread, but anyone doubting the existence of transitional species should pop on over to Ano Nuevo California to catch the elephant seals. They can only eat in the water, and breed on land, so cows have to store up food for their entire breeding period. Piss poor design there, God, but makes sense if they are in transition from the land to the sea. BTW, the Flood may be originally Jewish, but when I learned the Bible in Hebrew school my teachers were smart enough not to even pretend it really happened. And they read Hebrew and didn’t need a translation, unlike some other Bible lovers I can name. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/290 "2012-07-11T20:15:36Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, the Flood may be originally Jewish. Except, it isn’t. You lot nicked it from the Babylonians, probably during your little stay there. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/291 "2012-07-11T20:23:11Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > It has to be worded differently in order to obtain a copyright. Or else they would be sued. > > To everyone: sorry if i made you angry, that wasnt my intention. I need to take a break from this, but i will be back later. All the best to you. Angry? Yes, but not with you. I am absolutely furious with whomever convinced you that you need to ignore the subtle complexities of Nature and the Universe in order to have a relationship with the Almighty. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/292 "2012-07-11T20:40:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whales have floating, unattached tiny hip-bones that do nothing- pretty much the definition of a vestigial structure. > [@reef\_shark](#): > > Those two tiny bones are used for reproduction. Can you provide evidence for this claim, please? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/293 "2012-07-11T21:09:46Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Can you provide evidence for this claim, please? He’s thinking of snakes. In whales, those tiny bones are undetectable unless one dissects a dead whale- there is no protuberance in the skin. But it’s exactly what one would expect had whales evolved from four-legged mammals. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/294 "2012-07-11T21:12:09Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Can you provide evidence for this claim, please? I doubt he’s coming back, but he only has one cite anyway: [http://www.godandscience.org/](http://www.godandscience.org/) it’s in there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/295 "2012-07-11T21:31:32Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > But the article itself is not so sure about the advantages of live birth. > The one convincing advantage is , as you mentioned, temperature control. > A womb can keep a more regular temperature than an egg in the cold or heat. > > I don’t see how protection from predators is easier. Both still need a nest/denn and protection by the parents. In the case of eggs _both_ parents can protect the eggs. The highly pregnant mammal female would be at a disadvantage, I would say. > Although she is still more mobile than an egg, to get away from danger. She can also fight back or call for help, while an egg is passive. A small animal that could break through the shell of a “human egg” and eat the contents would find itself smashed with the nearest heavy object if it tried that with a pregnant woman. And an egg isn’t just immobile in itself; it immobilizes one or both parents. A pregnant animal is a lot more mobile than one tied to a nest. And that’s not just good for avoiding danger; it also means that they can move on to better feeding grounds, or follow along with the rest of their nomadic herd/pack/tribe. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/296 "2012-07-11T22:07:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He’s thinking of snakes. In whales, those tiny bones are undetectable unless one dissects a dead whale- there is no protuberance in the skin. But it’s exactly what one would expect had whales evolved from four-legged mammals. I’ve seen other creationists claim that in whales, the bones are used to strengthen the pelvic area during birth. I’ve never seen that claim made by actual scientists, but then I haven’t gone looking for it. Ultimately, it’s irrelevant, because the structure is still vestigial regardless of whether or not it’s picked up a new, secondary use. Ostrich wings are vestigial even though they’re used for mating, because that’s not the original, ancestral use for which they evolved. Our appendix is vestigial even though it’s picked up a secondary purpose as a home for useful gut bacteria, for the same reason. Creationists, unsurprisingly, have never acknowledged this point that I’ve ever seen. Someone in their community has declared that “vestigial = useless”, and they’ve just picked that up and run with it despite it being completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/297 "2012-07-11T22:19:50Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Ultimately, it’s irrelevant, because the structure is still vestigial regardless of whether or not it’s picked up a new, secondary use. Ostrich wings are vestigial even though they’re used for mating, because that’s not the original, ancestral use for which they evolved. But the creationist will claim that is the current purposes are the only purposes and that the “evolutionist” has failed to prove vestigiality (adding new word to Firefox dictionary). Either that or “but it’s still a bird- it’s macroevolution I don’t accept.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/298 "2012-07-11T22:56:32Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > I’ve seen other creationists claim that in whales, the bones are used to strengthen the pelvic area during birth. I’ve never seen that claim made by actual scientists, but then I haven’t gone looking for it. > > Ultimately, it’s irrelevant, because the structure is still vestigial regardless of whether or not it’s picked up a new, secondary use. Ostrich wings are vestigial even though they’re used for mating, because that’s not the original, ancestral use for which they evolved. Our appendix is vestigial even though it’s picked up a secondary purpose as a home for useful gut bacteria, for the same reason. Creationists, unsurprisingly, have never acknowledged this point that I’ve ever seen. Someone in their community has declared that “vestigial = useless”, and they’ve just picked that up and run with it despite it being completely wrong. Sure, but he’s also wrong about any function for whale’s hip bones- and I think it’s important to point out the many facts he’s got wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/299 "2012-07-11T22:58:11Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Except, it isn’t. > You lot nicked it from the Babylonians, probably during your little stay there. Gilgamesh and Enkidu, glug, glug, glug. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/300 "2012-07-11T23:01:36Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Gilgamesh and Enkidu, glug, glug, glug. Utnapishtim, as the waters rose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=16)