# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/321 "2012-07-12T08:34:55Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Ah, hell no. This thread would be up to 48 pages by now and 98% of that would be them two going back and forth. > > Besides the people responding here have done a great job explaining evolution to **reef shark** he is just refusing to listen or learn. Thanks for your input. Why didnt you post your best evidence? Its a recurring theme here "there are tons of examples’, ‘endless lists’, ‘mainstream scientists agree’… Majority opinion doesnt mean anything. Are you guys still proud you voted for bush and his dad? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/322 "2012-07-12T08:36:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He’s thinking of snakes. In whales, those tiny bones are undetectable unless one dissects a dead whale- there is no protuberance in the skin. But it’s exactly what one would expect had whales evolved from four-legged mammals. Again, ambulocetus was a 4 legged land mammal with hooves. Not a whale. If youre an expert, how do whales mate? How do they attach to one another? … ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/323 "2012-07-12T08:37:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I doubt he’s coming back, but he only has one cite anyway: > > [http://www.godandscience.org/](http://www.godandscience.org/) > > it’s in there somewhere. Thats the only link i posted? Now youre just lying. Dont bear false witness. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/324 "2012-07-12T08:37:50Z")
**Reef** I appreciate very much that you continue to respond. But I do have to say that you are only responding. Not actually answering or engaging in debate. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/325 "2012-07-12T08:38:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sure, but he’s also wrong about any function for whale’s hip bones- and I think it’s important to point out the many facts he’s got wrong. Again, please be specific. We can talk in generalities forever. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/326 "2012-07-12T08:39:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I tried that. It turns out Jesus is a super karate monkey death car. I knew you were lurking! Thanks for the appearance! Any comment on how Pearl Harbor and 9/11 werent false flag ops? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/327 "2012-07-12T08:42:53Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > O.K., reef shark, so you know that the King James Version is always a more accurate translation than any other English-language translation. Great! So you know Greek and Hebrew. Quote for us a dozen Biblical passages in the original language that demonstrate the greater accuracy of the King James Version. Make sure some are from the Old Testament and some are from the New Testament, so we can check on the quality of both the Hebrew and Greek translations. Since most of us don’t know Greek or Hebrew, then explain to us precisely what each passage means in English, being careful to explain what makes the passage hard to precisely translate into English. Then quote for us the same passages in all the following translations: > > God’s Word Translation > Contemporary English Version > New Century Version > Today’s English Version > New American Standard > New International Version > Living Bible > Revised Standard Version > Jerusalem Bible > New King James Version > New Revised Standard Version > Revised English Bible > New American Bible > Confraternity Version > New English Bible > Knox’s Version > New Living Translation > > I have all those versions, so I can check your references. Alas, I don’t know Greek or Hebrew and don’t own Bibles in those languages. You do know those languages though, so you can tell us all about the fine details of translating from Greek and Hebrew to English. So where did you learn Greek and Hebrew? Anyway, explain for each of the dozen passages and each of the eighteen English-language versions why the King James Version is the best of those eighteen. Golly, I’m honored to be in the presence of a scholar like yourself. Post the dates they were written please. Again, the Wycliffe/vulgate/catholic bible is not the one im recommending. > **[Wycliffe's Bible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyclif%27s_Bible)** > > Wycliffe's Bible (also known as the Middle English Bible \[MEB\], Wycliffite Bibles, or Wycliffian Bibles) is a sequence of orthodox Middle English Bible translations from the Latin Vulgate which appeared over a period from approximately 1382 to 1395. > Two different but evolving translation branches have been identified: mostly word-for-word translations classified as Early Version (EV) and the more sense-by-sense recensions classified as Later Version (LV). They are the earliest known literal t... ‘Although Wycliffe’s Bible circulated widely in the later Middle Ages, it had very little influence on the first English biblical translations of the reformation era such as those of William Tyndale and Miles Coverdale, as it had been translated from the Latin Vulgate rather than the original Greek and Hebrew; and consequently it was generally ignored in later English Protestant biblical scholarship. The earliest printed edition, of the New Testament only, was by John Lewis in 1731. However, due to the common misattribution of surviving manuscripts of Wycliffe’s Bible as works of an unknown Catholic translator, this version continued to circulate amongst 16th century English Catholics, and many of its renderings of the Vulgate into English were adopted by the translators of the Rheims New Testament. Since the Rheims version was itself to be consulted by the translators working for King James a number of readings from Wycliffe’s Bible did find their way into the Authorized King James Version of the Bible at second hand.’ ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/328 "2012-07-12T08:53:01Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Did these birds change into a different animal? Do condors, albatross, eagles change into something different? Or are they always birds?? There are no such things as MACRO evolution or MICRO evolution. There’s just evolution. But why don’t you give us an example of an animal that was created? One that has no fossils of it nor its entire species before, say 10.000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/329 "2012-07-12T08:56:15Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > [Vulgate - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate) > > The catholic bible isnt the same as the KJV. > [@reef\_shark](#): > > Post the dates they were written please. Again, the Wycliffe/vulgate/catholic bible is not the one im recommending. We don’t care what you are recommending. We want you to explain why God couldn’t write clearly what he means _before_ the writing of the KJV nor _after_ WHY isn’t the Catholic bible the same as the KJV? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/330 "2012-07-12T08:57:51Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Again, ambulocetus was a 4 legged land mammal with hooves. Not a whale. . A transitional animal. Thanks for your input. ---
**Author:** ![EVIL\_COW\_PIE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@EVIL\_COW\_PIE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EVIL_COW_PIE)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/331 "2012-07-12T09:28:42Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Again, Genesis answers your question. So you \*are \*afraid to answer this question. I find it ironic that you have spent this entire thread asking for specifics yet you continue to spout generalities and second hand sources. How long, in years, do you believe the earth has existed? In your own words please. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/332 "2012-07-12T09:28:53Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > A transitional animal. Thanks for your input. Youve obviously never seen a cow or horse before…Those arent whales. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/333 "2012-07-12T09:30:07Z")
> [@EVIL\_COW\_PIE](#): > > So you \*are \*afraid to answer this question. I find it ironic that you have spent this entire thread asking for specifics yet you continue to spout generalities and second hand sources. > > How long, in years, do you believe the earth has existed? In your own words please. Again, the burden of proof is on evolutionists to prove their theory worthy of being in public science books as fact. Why are you asking me to prove the bible to you? Im not asking for God to be put in the books. The fact that you dont get this concept is very troubling to me. ---
**Author:** ![EVIL\_COW\_PIE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@EVIL\_COW\_PIE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EVIL_COW_PIE)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/334 "2012-07-12T09:48:52Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Again, the burden of proof is on evolutionists to prove their theory worthy of being in public science books as fact. Why are you asking me to prove the bible to you? Im not asking for God to be put in the books. The fact that you dont get this concept is very troubling to me. You are “debating” dishonestly. I’m not asking you to prove the bible. Let’s try this. If you won’t answer this directly and honestly, then answer one of the following: A. Why won’t you answer the question? or… B. Please cite the passage (exactly) so I can look up the age of the earth, in years, for myself. [sup]For your sake I’ll overlook the childish and laughable tactic of you being “troubled” by my question. You did open this as a debate, right?[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/335 "2012-07-12T09:52:43Z")
> [@EVIL\_COW\_PIE](#): > > You are “debating” dishonestly. > > I’m not asking you to prove the bible. > > Let’s try this. If you won’t answer this directly and honestly, then answer one of the following: > > A. Why won’t you answer the question? > > or… > > B. Please cite the passage (exactly) so I can look up the age of the earth, in years, for myself. > > [sup]For your sake I’ll overlook the childish and laughable tactic of you being “troubled” by my question. You did open this as a debate, right?[/sup] Read the first 8-10 chapters of Genesis (from the kjv). I cant explain it any better. [http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/](http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/) All the best to you. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/336 "2012-07-12T09:56:07Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Youve obviously never seen a cow or horse before…Those arent whales. Ambulocetus does not have hooves. Why do you state it has? ---
**Author:** ![EVIL\_COW\_PIE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@EVIL\_COW\_PIE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EVIL_COW_PIE)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/337 "2012-07-12T10:14:01Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Read the first 8-10 chapters of Genesis (from the kjv). Hmm. I read the link you provided (thanks) and it did not say one word about how old **reef shark** thinks the earth is. Maybe you’re not understanding the question. I shall restate: **reef shark** , I want to know how old you think the earth is in years, _in your own words_. I’m not asking how old the KJV says it is. However, if you agree with the KJV please free to re-state in your own words. > [@](#): > > I cant explain it any better. Sure you can! Fill in this blank: The earth is \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ years old. It’s easy really. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/338 "2012-07-12T10:17:29Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > So you think reptiles turned into birds??? Scales to feathers??? Is this observable? Thanks anyway. I suspect you have an unworkable definition of ‘observe’, at least as applies to your opponents in this discussion. Is Noah’s flood _observable_? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/339 "2012-07-12T10:17:35Z")
I am guessing reef shark is getting his bullet points from articles like this: > **[\- A Whale Fantasy from National Geographic -](https://www.trueorigin.org/ng_whales01.php)** > > Conventional wisdom among evolutionists is that whales descended from land mammals, but the fossil evidence is not persuasive, let alone > conclusive. But he’s doing a pretty bad job and mixing up a lot of the counter arguments. Can’t you even keep your creationist talking points straight? you need to go back and brush up a bit. The article by Harun Yaha does seem to actually have some good points against the claimed transitional fossil sequence from Ambulocetus to Whales, any one want to explain if its got any merit or not? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/340 "2012-07-12T10:33:15Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Again, please be specific. We can talk in generalities forever. We’ve noticed that about your posts. Your inability to actually engage in a discussion, simply throwing out Creationist tripe and running away, accompanied by a lot of utterly silly mixtures of politics, poor theology, and distorted history are not actually persuading anyone to do anything but point at your posts and laugh. Why don’t you pick a single topic and make the effort to engage other posters at an intellectual level? Posting bumper sticker canards is really failing in whatever effort you think you are making. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=18)