# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/21 "2012-07-11T13:34:48Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > \*That’s \*what you’re asking for? I wish you’d just focus your thoughts and present an OP that got a coherent thesis/question/debate topic. One that actually matches up to your thread title. So far you’ve proven unable to do that. Nobody here seems to believe in the illuminati or Jesus. I figured maybe an atheist would provide a reason for doubting either. Thanks for your input, though. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/22 "2012-07-11T13:35:35Z")
Jesus told me to not join the Illuminati, but He also said that as long as I follow the Commandments and don’t fuck people over I can believe anything I want about the origins of the Universe and/or humanity. It’s only when beliefs lead to evil actions that He has an issue. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/23 "2012-07-11T13:36:40Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I was addressing the deluded sir who insisted that he did not need evidence for evolution which is therefore only faith based. As opposed to yourself who rightfully believes in the evidence-backed Christian faith. My apologies, im badly in need of sleep. Your support is much appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/24 "2012-07-11T13:39:33Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Jesus told me to not join the Illuminati, but He also said that as long as I follow the Commandments and don’t fuck people over I can believe anything I want about the origins of the Universe and/or humanity. It’s only when beliefs lead to evil actions that He has an issue. If you listen to Jesus, you would have listened to the teachings of Genesis also. Its the opposite of the big bang and primordial soup. Actually, since evolution was put in the public school books in the '60s, the crime rate has increased steadily. If you teach little kids that they come from animals, or that they are animals, chances are they will behave like one. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/25 "2012-07-11T13:39:31Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Nobody here seems to believe in the illuminati or Jesus. I figured maybe an atheist would provide a reason for doubting either. Thanks for your input, though. Then start a thread that asks that clearly in the OP. You have proven incapable of doing that. Your original post in this thread and your thread title are about as clear as mud. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/26 "2012-07-11T13:41:32Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Jesus told me to not join the Illuminati, but He also said that as long as I follow the Commandments and don’t fuck people over I can believe anything I want about the origins of the Universe and/or humanity. It’s only when beliefs lead to evil actions that He has an issue. Plus there was the whole Holocaust fiasco. Stalin liked evolution too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/27 "2012-07-11T13:42:10Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Im asking anybody to provide evidence for evolution (not natural selection, or ‘micro-evolution’). Thats the opposite of saying I dont need evidence. Ok, I’ll bite (forgive me, everyone… but the worm looked so damn tasty): The [fossil record](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_record)shows many “[transitional forms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil)”, like [Tiktaalik](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik) and [Ambulocetus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambulocetus_natans) that are best explained by evolution. Other [evidence of common descent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent)includes DNA genetic analyses. The opossum and raccoon, for example, are morphologically similar, but DNA analysis shows that the raccoon is much more closely related to other placental mammals like humans, walruses, and dolphins, and opossums are more closely related to marsupials like kangaroos. Evolution predicts this (and predicted this before we had the skills to perform DNA analysis). Human DNA, on average, is approximately 1.2% divergent from Chimpanzees, 1.6% from Gorillas, and 6.6% divergent from baboons- and evolution best explains this. [Vestigial structures](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigiality#Animals), like the floating hip bones of whales, are best explained by evolution. The ancestors of whales had legs, and retain some traces of this in their anatomy. There are numerous other examples of evidence for common descent (evolution)- like [proteins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent#Proteins) and [pseudogenes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent#Pseudogenes). ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/28 "2012-07-11T13:43:10Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > If you listen to Jesus, you would have listened to the teachings of Genesis also. Its the opposite of the big bang and primordial soup. Actually, since evolution was put in the public school books in the '60s, the crime rate has increased steadily. If you teach little kids that they come from animals, or that they are animals, chances are they will behave like one. The flaw in your argument is that Jesus was a rabbit, Mary was a chicken, and Joseph was a sperm whale. After all how else do you explain Easter? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/29 "2012-07-11T13:43:33Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Plus there was the whole Holocaust fiasco. Stalin liked evolution too. Stalin banned Darwin’s works - so did Hitler (Stalin supported non-Darwinian evolution - Hitler was a creationist). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/30 "2012-07-11T13:45:41Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Actually, since evolution was put in the public school books in the '60s, the crime rate has increased steadily. This is [demonstrably false](http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm)- US crime rate increased in the 60s and 70s, peaked in the 80s, and started to come down again in the mid 90s, continuing to decrease in the 00s. The murder rate now is about the same as it was in 1960. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/31 "2012-07-11T13:45:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > God creates the Garden of Eden, then a _Tyrannosaurus Rex_ evolves and eats Adam, Eve, and the Serpent. God says screw it and arranges a virgin _Tyrannosaurus Rex_ to give birth to Raptor Jesus. And as we all know, Raptor Jesus is **very** not happy. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/32 "2012-07-11T13:46:01Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > If you listen to Jesus, you would have listened to the teachings of Genesis also. Its the opposite of the big bang and primordial soup. Actually, since evolution was put in the public school books in the '60s, the crime rate has increased steadily. If you teach little kids that they come from animals, or that they are animals, chances are they will behave like one. People who commit crimes and/or sins against their fellow men will answer at Judgement, regardless of their rationalizations for those behaviours. A person who does evil because they believe they are doing the Lord’s work is no better than a person who does evil through selfishness. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/33 "2012-07-11T13:46:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ok, I’ll bite (forgive me, everyone… but the worm looked so damn tasty): > > The [fossil record](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_record)shows many “[transitional forms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil)”, like [Tiktaalik](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik) and [Ambulocetus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambulocetus_natans) that are best explained by evolution. > > Other [evidence of common descent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent)includes DNA genetic analyses. The opossum and raccoon, for example, are morphologically similar, but DNA analysis shows that the raccoon is much more closely related to other placental mammals like humans, walruses, and dolphins, and opossums are more closely related to marsupials like kangaroos. Evolution predicts this (and predicted this before we had the skills to perform DNA analysis). Human DNA, on average, is approximately 1.2% divergent from Chimpanzees, 1.6% from Gorillas, and 6.6% divergent from baboons- and evolution best explains this. > > [Vestigial structures](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigiality#Animals), like the floating hip bones of whales, are best explained by evolution. The ancestors of whales had legs, and retain some traces of this in their anatomy. > > There are numerous other examples of evidence for common descent (evolution)- like [proteins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent#Proteins) and [pseudogenes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent#Pseudogenes). If the fossil record shows anything, its that there is a complete lack of intermediary fossils or ‘transitional links’. The tiktaalik was just a lobe-finned fish, and the ambulocetus was a land mammal with hooves (not a whale). Out of the trillions of fossils being constantly uncovered, is that the best you got? Dont tell me about the Lucy fossil next, please. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/34 "2012-07-11T13:47:24Z")
I’ve edited thread title. **reef shark** , we ask that people put a little effort into their thread titles so people can make a somewhat informed decision about what they’re going to click on (or not). ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/35 "2012-07-11T13:48:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’ve edited thread title. **reef shark** , we ask that people put a little effort into their thread titles so people can make a somewhat informed decision about what they’re going to click on (or not). Great! Now what can you do about that OP? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/36 "2012-07-11T13:49:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ok, I’ll bite (forgive me, everyone… but the worm looked so damn tasty): > > The [fossil record](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_record)shows many “[transitional forms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil)”, like [Tiktaalik](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik) and [Ambulocetus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambulocetus_natans) that are best explained by evolution. > > Other [evidence of common descent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent)includes DNA genetic analyses. The opossum and raccoon, for example, are morphologically similar, but DNA analysis shows that the raccoon is much more closely related to other placental mammals like humans, walruses, and dolphins, and opossums are more closely related to marsupials like kangaroos. Evolution predicts this (and predicted this before we had the skills to perform DNA analysis). Human DNA, on average, is approximately 1.2% divergent from Chimpanzees, 1.6% from Gorillas, and 6.6% divergent from baboons- and evolution best explains this. > > [Vestigial structures](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigiality#Animals), like the floating hip bones of whales, are best explained by evolution. The ancestors of whales had legs, and retain some traces of this in their anatomy. > > There are numerous other examples of evidence for common descent (evolution)- like [proteins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent#Proteins) and [pseudogenes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent#Pseudogenes). If you want to talk about the complexity of DNA, you would know that mainstream science even agrees humans and chimps have at least 35-40 million different nucleotides. A change in about a handful can be fatal. You do the math (genetecists are still doing the math too). Mainstream science will also tell you that gene mutations, gene loss, and differential gene regulation are the key components to molecular evolution. However we still cant point to one beneficial mutation (nor prove a mutation creates new genetic material). Mutations scramble existing information, they dont create new material. Gene loss and differential gene regulation are merely evidence of natural selection. Theres a major problem here. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/37 "2012-07-11T13:50:24Z")
And there are NO vestigial structures. If there was evidence of vestigial structures, it would be loss, not gain. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/38 "2012-07-11T13:50:48Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > If the fossil record shows anything, its that there is a complete lack of intermediary fossils or ‘transitional links’. The tiktaalik was just a lobe-finned fish, and the ambulocetus was a land mammal with hooves (not a whale). Out of the trillions of fossils being constantly uncovered, is that the best you got? Dont tell me about the Lucy fossil next, please. _Trillions_ of fossils? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/39 "2012-07-11T13:51:40Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > If the fossil record shows anything, its that there is a complete lack of intermediary fossils or ‘transitional links’. The tiktaalik was just a lobe-finned fish, and the ambulocetus was a land mammal with hooves (not a whale). Out of the trillions of fossils being constantly uncovered, is that the best you got? Dont tell me about the Lucy fossil next, please. Those were examples- there are tons and tons of transitional fossils. My links provided several more examples. Here’s another one- the fossil record for the [evolution of the horse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_horse)gives one of the most complete pictures of evolutionary lineage- from a fox-sized forest browser to the big galloping modern horses. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/40 "2012-07-11T13:51:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’ve edited thread title. **reef shark** , we ask that people put a little effort into their thread titles so people can make a somewhat informed decision about what they’re going to click on (or not). Thank you, again my apologies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=3)