# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/401 "2012-07-13T07:27:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > We’ve noticed that about your posts. > > Your inability to actually engage in a discussion, simply throwing out Creationist tripe and running away, accompanied by a lot of utterly silly mixtures of politics, poor theology, and distorted history are not actually persuading anyone to do anything but point at your posts and laugh. > > Why don’t you pick a single topic and make the effort to engage other posters at an intellectual level? Posting bumper sticker canards is really failing in whatever effort you think you are making. I engage in discussion through scientific data. I dont see any of that in your post. See the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/402 "2012-07-13T07:27:46Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > You know they have to attach to ‘facilitate coitus’, right? Ever seen these tiny bones in snakes? Same function. Again, a few episodes of the croc hunter wouldnt hurt. If this is true, you should have no trouble supporting it with a citation. Nobody is arguing about vestigial leg function in snakes - but please support your assertion that the same is true in whales with actual evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/403 "2012-07-13T07:31:33Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Rising less than an inch per year. Thats not going to cause a flood to bury clams alive. Did you know theres land under the oceans? Clams don’t need a flood to get buried in mud, they already live in water. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/404 "2012-07-13T07:31:51Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > You still dont understand that the clams had to be buried to fossilize. They were petrified clams, still closed. Meaning they were buried alive. **If everest rises .25 inches per year, a clam isnt going to suffocate. Plate tectonics offers no explanation for that, sorry**. > [@Latro](#): > > Plate tectonics made the platau rise and then river gauged ou the canyons. > You have heard about palte tectonics, have you? > > India was a seperate continent that drifted towards Asia. It bumped into it, and is still bumping into it. Thats how the Himilaya’s were formed. > > Didn’t you go to school? You implied that plate tectonics had nothing to do with Everest rising. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/405 "2012-07-13T07:35:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The evidence for an “old earth” and old universe encompass far more than biology, and include geology, physics, and astronomy. > > For example- there are over 300,000 craters on the moon bigger than 1 KM (and countless more smaller ones). If the universe (and hence, the moon) is only 6000 to 10000 years old, then that accounts to 30 or more large impacts on the moon _per year_- about one every week or two. Amateur astronomers have observed even relatively small impacts in real time- so one only needs commonly accessible telescopes to see many of these- and the largest, like the impacts that made the large craters visible to the eye alone, would certainly have been visible from earth. > > So **reef shark** , how do you think the craters on the moon came about? Massive amounts of ice. All were mostly iceballs. The Genesis account of the flood depicts a catastrophic, worldwide event. Not only did the fountains of the deep break open, but the ‘firmament/expanse/canopy of water’ above the heaven (sky) came down suddenly. Im not concerned about craters on the moon, because if the universe was billions of years old, we would notice a lot of other things. Like a star formation (out of the trillions). But all we see are novas and supernovas. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/406 "2012-07-13T07:35:52Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Rising less than an inch per year. Thats not going to cause a flood to bury clams alive. Did you know theres land under the oceans? Clams get buried by sediment in oceans today, then new clams inhabit the top layer, then those get buried, and so on. A single, brief, catastrophic flood event could not create multiple layered fossil beds where each layer contains evidence of being a living ecosystem, yet this is what we find in sedimentary rocks. It’s not just rocks with shells mixed in, it’s layer upon layer of sequential horizons, with evidence that each one persisted for a while before being buried - corals, crinoids, sponges, etc don’t spring up overnight. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/407 "2012-07-13T07:36:57Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Clams don’t need a flood to get buried in mud, they already live in water. Then clams should be getting fossilized all the time, those dumb things. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/408 "2012-07-13T07:37:29Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Im not concerned about craters on the moon, because if the universe was billions of years old, we would notice a lot of other things. Like a star formation (out of the trillions). But all we see are novas and supernovas. The fact that we see _anything at all_ beyond a distance of a few thousand light years is a problem for which creationism has no satisfactory answer. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/409 "2012-07-13T07:38:51Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Then clams should be getting fossilized all the time, those dumb things. There are places where sedimentary rocks are being deposited and formed today, yes. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/410 "2012-07-13T07:39:22Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Probably. I’d like for reef shark to have the guts to say it. I’m guessing he doesn’t know. I’m also guessing he is lying about being the author of the stuff he plagiarized from the God site. I’ll guaran-damn-tee you the real author of that site would spit out a date in a heartbeat. If I have some time today I might email that site. > > Speaking of reef sharks, **reef shark** , how long have sharks swam the oceans? Again, why are you asking me to prove the bible to you? Are little kids learning the bible in public schools? Its on you evolutionists to come up with a little piece of evidence. And I verified myself on that thread. All the best to you. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/411 "2012-07-13T07:41:28Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Not only are there two creation accounts there, there is no evidence that the earth was created before the Sun. Further, the account in the first chapter of Genesis is incoherent for a variety of reasons: > > 1. Plants are created a day before the Sun (did they all die off)? > 2. The moon is not a ‘light’, it generates no light of it’s own, it _reflects the light of the Sun._ > 3. How could their be ‘morning’ and ‘evening’ without the Sun? > > Those just popped out at me. How is this anything other than an obvious creation myth? Thanks! How did the plants wait millions of years for the CO2 from the animals? How about the plants that depend on animals for fertilization? How do you explain symbiotic relationships? Did the termite come first, or its bacteria that helps it digest wood? Huge chicken and egg problems here for evolutionists. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/412 "2012-07-13T07:42:32Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Thanks! How did the plants wait millions of years for the CO2 from the animals? How about the plants that depend on animals for fertilization? How do you explain symbiotic relationships? Did the termite come first, or its bacteria that helps it digest wood? Huge chicken and egg problems here for evolutionists. I’ll give this forum a day to try to figure those out. Again, all the best. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/413 "2012-07-13T07:45:16Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Im not concerned about craters on the moon, because if the universe was billions of years old, we would notice a lot of other things.\*\* Like a star formation (out of the trillions). But all we see are novas and supernovas\*\*. [Star formation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_formation#Observations) has been observed. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/414 "2012-07-13T07:50:36Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Thanks! How did the plants wait millions of years for the CO2 from the animals? How about the plants that depend on animals for fertilization? How do you explain symbiotic relationships? Did the termite come first, or its bacteria that helps it digest wood? Huge chicken and egg problems here for evolutionists. [Earliest land plants.](http://www.uni-muenster.de/GeoPalaeontologie/Palaeo/Palbot/seite3.html) 425 million years ago. You really don’t have a clue how evolution works, do you? New species/relationships, etc. don’t just appear fully formed. They evolve. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/415 "2012-07-13T07:51:03Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Not only did the fountains of the deep break open, but the ‘firmament/expanse/canopy of water’ above the heaven (sky) came down suddenly. Hmm, yes you have touched on the world-view of the bronze-age people that made up these stories. They believed the sky was a solid dome, covering the earth. Above and below was water. “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” In order to make it rain god opened hatches in the dome," the sluices of heaven", so water surrounding the dome poured through. Is that still your world view? It’s in the bible you know. Don’t let the evil scientists fool you into thinking we live on a sphere hurtling through empty space.. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/416 "2012-07-13T07:53:48Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Thanks! How did the plants wait millions of years for the CO2 from the animals? How about the plants that depend on animals for fertilization? How do you explain symbiotic relationships? Did the termite come first, or its bacteria that helps it digest wood? Huge chicken and egg problems here for evolutionists. How did fig wasps survive the Noachian flood? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/417 "2012-07-13T08:05:45Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Thanks! How did the plants wait millions of years for the CO2 from the animals? Seriously. I don’t mean to be offensive, but you really didn’t go to school, did you? > [@](#): > > How about the plants that depend on animals for fertilization? > How do you explain symbiotic relationships? Did the termite come first, or its bacteria that helps it digest wood? Huge chicken and egg problems here for evolutionists. In the mean time, while we ponder this, could you ponder how evolution and natural selection could play a role in this. You accept the idea of how one species can/could change over time, due to influences from the outside. One of the influences could be another species. One species can adapt to another species. Or even both species adapt to each-other. Not all relations are predator vs prey. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/418 "2012-07-13T08:31:35Z")
BTW, **Reef**. Could you give me your take on a question I asked earlier? > [@Latro](#): > > If so many species became extinct during the flood… > What is the creationist’s “explanation” that apparently not all kinds of animals were taken on board the ark? > Doesn’t the bible state that specimens from each animal were brought on board? Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/419 "2012-07-13T09:09:43Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > You know they have to attach to ‘facilitate coitus’, right? Ever seen these tiny bones in snakes? Same function. Again, a few episodes of the croc hunter wouldnt hurt. You have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re making this up. Those bones have nothing to do with coitus- they’re much to small, and they can’t even be felt by running the hands over a whale’s skin. Do you have any evidence at all that whales use these bones for coitus? I think you can’t explain those bones, and so you’re panicking. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/420 "2012-07-13T09:11:10Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Thanks! How did the plants wait millions of years for the CO2 from the animals? How about the plants that depend on animals for fertilization? How do you explain symbiotic relationships? Did the termite come first, or its bacteria that helps it digest wood? Huge chicken and egg problems here for evolutionists. Symbiotic relationships evolved together- as far as termites, bacteria were certainly around first, but the specific bacteria that lives inside termites evolved along with the termite- just like the bacteria that live inside us, or inside ruminants. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=22)