# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/501 "2012-07-15T05:01:55Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > I’ve never heard that evolutionists claim that meteors create fossils. Did you make that up? How else do fossils form? Oh yeah, a FLOOD. Thanks again! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/502 "2012-07-15T05:02:27Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > You lose with this question. For the 15th time (wow), the burden of proof is on evolutionists to prove their BS to be factual and worth being in books as fact. See how you sidestepped all that? > [@reef\_shark](#): > > It assumes 6 million years before even talking about the clams. Wow biased much? What’s wrong with 6 million years? Does that seem too long to you? > [@reef\_shark](#): > > Evolution relies on sheer chance and randomness. Again, i refer you to chuck missler. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=496V7OR35vs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=496V7OR35vs) Of course evolution relies on sheer chance. That’s how it works. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/503 "2012-07-15T05:02:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We have not insulted you, but I look forward to the board’s response to this late night Gish Gallop. If you want to stick around this board, vowing to break the rules is not a great idea. If theres no reason to insult me, theres no reason to ban. Its simple logic. Use logic. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/504 "2012-07-15T05:04:08Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > What’s wrong with 6 million years? Does that seem too long to you? > > Of course evolution relies on sheer chance. That’s how it works. How do you prove the 6 million years in the first place? This is the whole question. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/505 "2012-07-15T05:05:16Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > What’s wrong with 6 million years? Does that seem too long to you? > > Of course evolution relies on sheer chance. That’s how it works. DNA is so complex, the fact that it was randomly created doesnt even have a value. And thats your proof! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/506 "2012-07-15T05:07:32Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Tell me the rules, and cite where I broke them. I was referring to your promise to come back if you get banned. It goes without saying that’s against the rules. If you want cites for your other behavior, you broke the rule against calling people liars earlier: > [@reef\_shark](#): > > Thats the only link i posted? Now youre just lying. Dont bear false witness. > [@Liars, lying, and lies in Great Debates](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liars-lying-and-lies-in-great-debates/430812/1): > > “You are a Liar” will be treated, henceforth, as a personal insult subject to the normal sanctions of insult in Great Debates.] I moderated you for that one but didn’t give you a formal warning. > [@](#): > > I dont crave unnecessary sympathy. And you’re now tiptoeing up to our rules on personal insults: > [@Liars, lying, and lies in Great Debates](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liars-lying-and-lies-in-great-debates/430812/1): > > The misunderstood, (and perhaps, misapplied) rule that the phrase “You are a liar” may be treated as the equivalent of “Your statement is a lie” is hereby suspended. > > “You are a Liar” will be treated, henceforth, as a personal insult subject to the normal sanctions of insult in Great Debates. > > The permanent record in this rule is posted at [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9294639&highlight=liar#post9294639](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9294639&highlight=liar#post9294639). > > This thread will be stickied for a week, then allowed to drop off. > > Comments may continue to be posted in [Should “Liar” Be Permissible In GD?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=447653) > [@No direct personal insults or "flaming" in great debates](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-direct-personal-insults-or-flaming-in-great-debates/210240/1): > > Direct personal insults of other posters and “flaming” are not permitted in Great Debates (or, indeed, in any SDMB forum outside of The BBQ Pit). The general rule is to attack the other poster’s _arguments_, rather than the other poster him- or herself. Your disingenuousness about the ‘apes in my ancestry’ comment aside, you’re now coming pretty close to insulting other posters and you need to stop. Going on the attack in advance by daring people to ban you will not work. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/507 "2012-07-15T05:08:24Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > DNA is so complex, the fact that it was randomly created doesnt even have a value. And thats your proof! Then prove DNA is too complex to have randomly evolved. Hint: it has to do with billions of years and millions of chemical reactions every second. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/508 "2012-07-15T05:08:31Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > So where’s your proof of God and creation? The textbooks are filled with facts that have proof behind them. Watch one of the chuck missler videos i POSTED ON THIS THREAD. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/509 "2012-07-15T05:09:13Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > DNA is so complex, the fact that it was randomly created doesnt even have a value. And thats your proof! Evolution isn’t random; DNA and other products of evolution are the result of natural selection applied to billions upon billions of genetic mixings and mutations. It’s mindless and directionless, yes; there’s no master plan and no one is telling it where to go; but it _isn’t_ random. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/510 "2012-07-15T05:10:01Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Then prove DNA is too complex to have randomly evolved. Hint: it has to do with billions of years and millions of chemical reactions every second. Hint: the burden of proof is on you to keep your theories as ‘FACTS’ in text books. Getting this yet? You should state facts, not answer questions. Explain symbiosis over millions of years. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/511 "2012-07-15T05:11:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Evolution isn’t random; DNA and other products of evolution are the result of natural selection applied to billions upon billions of genetic mixings and mutations. It’s mindless and directionless, yes; there’s no master plan and no one is telling it where to go; but it _isn’t_ random. Selection isnt creation. Do you have access to a dictionary? Or are you going to start talking about lizard people again? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/512 "2012-07-15T05:12:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I was referring to your promise to come back if you get banned. It goes without saying that’s against the rules. If you want cites for your other behavior, you broke the rule against calling people liars earlier: > > I moderated you for that one but didn’t give you a formal warning. > And you’re now tiptoeing up to our rules on personal insults: > > Your disingenuousness about the ‘apes in my ancestry’ comment aside, you’re now coming pretty close to insulting other posters and you need to stop. Going on the attack in advance by daring people to ban you will not work. Why should I be banned? Did I use improper language or insult people? Or was that all against me? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/513 "2012-07-15T05:13:31Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Explain symbiosis over millions of years. What’s to explain? Your “they had to come simultaneously” argument is uncited and incorrect. It was already rebutted. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/514 "2012-07-15T05:13:43Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > DNA is so complex, the fact that it was randomly created doesnt even have a value. And thats your proof! Dawkins covers this elegantly in “Climbing Mount Improbable.” Henry Morris makes the same error you do, in insisting that DNA arrive all in one step, without any intermediate steps. He calculates the total number of possible DNA strings, then, without the least justification, divides “1” by this number, and claims that as the “probability” of DNA arising. (There are 7 billion people on earth; thus, the probability, per Morris, of my existence is one in 7,000,000,000. Pretty slim odds. Miraculous! So much for Morris.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/515 "2012-07-15T05:14:33Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Why should I be banned? I said nothing about banning you until you brought up the possibility that you were going to get banned. I said boasting about what you’re going to do if you get banned isn’t a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/516 "2012-07-15T05:14:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What’s to explain? Your “they had to come simultaneously” argument is uncited and incorrect. It was already rebutted. Where was it rebutted? Surely you saw the link? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/517 "2012-07-15T05:15:27Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Watch one of the chuck missler videos i POSTED ON THIS THREAD. What makes him an authority to be listened to? > [@reef\_shark](#): > > Hint: the burden of proof is on you to keep your theories as ‘FACTS’ in text books. Getting this yet? You should state facts, not answer questions. Explain symbiosis over millions of years. Thanks. [Organic compounds (including amino acids)created in lab.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment) And to save you the trouble. > [@](#): > > The Miller and Urey experiment[1] (or Urey–Miller experiment)[2] was an experiment that simulated hypothetical conditions thought at the time to be present on the early Earth, and tested for the occurrence of chemical origins of life. Specifically, the experiment tested Alexander Oparin’s and J. B. S. Haldane’s hypothesis that conditions on the primitive Earth favored chemical reactions that synthesized organic compounds from inorganic precursors. Considered to be the classic experiment on the origin of life, it was conducted in 1952[3] and published in 1953 by Stanley Miller and Harold Urey at the University of Chicago.[4][5][6] > > After Miller’s death in 2007, scientists examining sealed vials preserved from the original experiments were able to show that there were\*\* actually well over 20 different amino acids produced in Miller’s original experiments.\*\* That is considerably more than what Miller originally reported, **and more than the 20 that naturally occur in life**.[7] Moreover, some evidence suggests that Earth’s original atmosphere might have had a different composition from the gas used in the Miller–Urey experiment. T\*\*here is abundant evidence of major volcanic eruptions 4 billion years ago, which would have released carbon dioxide (CO2), nitrogen (N2), hydrogen sulfide (H2S), and sulfur dioxide (SO2) into the atmosphere. Experiments using these gases in addition to the ones in the original Miller–Urey experiment have produced more diverse molecules.[\*\*8] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/518 "2012-07-15T05:15:43Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Selection isnt creation. Nor did I say it was. DNA wasn’t “created”; it evolved from simple to highly complex over billions of years. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/519 "2012-07-15T05:16:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I said nothing about banning you until you brought up the possibility that you were going to get banned. I said boasting about what you’re going to do if you get banned isn’t a good idea. I dint talk about my banning until it was told to me. Cause and effect. Getting banned doesnt really help me post here. And I want to post here, because I think there are a lot of intelligent people here. However, I think they went to the same public schools that I did. Thats all. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/520 "2012-07-15T05:17:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nor did I say it was. DNA wasn’t “created”; it evolved from simple to highly complex over billions of years. Cite please? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=27)