# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/41 "2012-07-11T13:52:58Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > And there are NO vestigial structures. If there was evidence of vestigial structures, it would be loss, not gain. I don’t know what this means. Whales have floating, unattached tiny hip-bones that do nothing- pretty much the definition of a vestigial structure. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/42 "2012-07-11T13:53:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Those were examples- there are tons and tons of transitional fossils. My links provided several more examples. Here’s another one- the fossil record for the [evolution of the horse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_horse)gives one of the most complete pictures of evolutionary lineage- from a fox-sized forest browser to the big galloping modern horses. And here we go with ‘tons of examples’. There are trillions of fossils and thousands of different kinds of animals. Surely you can find something? Notice how your horse starts as a horse, and ends as a horse. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/43 "2012-07-11T13:53:58Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > One that actually matches up to your thread title. So far you’ve proven unable to do that. But you see, today is Opposite Day. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/44 "2012-07-11T13:54:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’ve edited thread title. **reef shark** , we ask that people put a little effort into their thread titles so people can make a somewhat informed decision about what they’re going to click on (or not). I don’t think the thread title gives any clue to what the debate is here. The problem isn’t with the title, it’s with the OP. I have no idea what the debate is. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/45 "2012-07-11T13:55:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know what this means. Whales have floating, unattached tiny hip-bones that do nothing- pretty much the definition of a vestigial structure. Those two tiny bones are used for reproduction. Snakes have them too. One or two shows of the croc hunter would solve this for you. ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/46 "2012-07-11T13:55:36Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > And there are NO vestigial structures. If there was evidence of vestigial structures, it would be loss, not gain. Wait what? This entire sentence confuses me, vestigial structures are by definition neither losses nor gains, they’re formally useful things that stopped being useful but are not harmful enough to actually disappear. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/47 "2012-07-11T13:56:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t think the thread title gives any clue to what the debate is here. The problem isn’t with the title, it’s with the OP. I have no idea what the debate is. Do you believe in the big bang, or what the bible teaches? Those are the only two options, unless you think youre in the matrix. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/48 "2012-07-11T13:57:01Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > If you want to talk about the complexity of DNA, you would know that mainstream science even agrees humans and chimps have at least 35-40 million different nucleotides. A change in about a handful can be fatal. You do the math (genetecists are still doing the math too). Mainstream science will also tell you that gene mutations, gene loss, and differential gene regulation are the key components to molecular evolution. However we still cant point to one beneficial mutation (nor prove a mutation creates new genetic material). Mutations scramble existing information, they dont create new material. Gene loss and differential gene regulation are merely evidence of natural selection. Theres a major problem here. This post was ripped word-for-word from [here](http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1861194/pg7) (including misspelling of the word “geneticists”)- though there may be another source I didn’t see. I think it’s unlikely \*\*reef shark \*\*actually knows what the post is saying. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/49 "2012-07-11T13:57:26Z")
> [@Rubixcube](#): > > Wait what? This entire sentence confuses me, vestigial structures are generally by definition nether losses nor gains, they’re formally useful things that stopped being useful but are not harmful enough to actually disappear. Can you name one please? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/50 "2012-07-11T13:58:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This post was ripped word-for-word from [here](http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1861194/pg7) (including misspelling of the word “geneticists”)- though there may be another source I didn’t see. > > I think it’s unlikely \*\*reef shark \*\*actually knows what the post is saying. I am that person from glp. I plagiarized myself. All the best to you. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/51 "2012-07-11T13:59:36Z")
[http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1861194/pg1](http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1861194/pg1) Reading through this will save evolutionists a lot of time. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/52 "2012-07-11T14:01:12Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > _Trillions_ of fossils? :rolleyes: Ever seen fish fossils stacked on each other? Thats what happens after a big flood. ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/53 "2012-07-11T14:01:13Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Can you name one please? Sure humans have ear muscles and tail bones, neither of which are useful. But the textbook case of vestigial organs are the blind mole rats, who have eyes rendered entirely useless because they have a layer of skin completely covering them. Evolution would predict these kinds of things. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/54 "2012-07-11T14:01:17Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Do you believe in the big bang, or what the bible teaches? That doesn’t have anything to do with evolution. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/55 "2012-07-11T14:02:02Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > If the fossil record shows anything, its that there is a complete lack of intermediary fossils or ‘transitional links’. The tiktaalik was just a lobe-finned fish, and the ambulocetus was a land mammal with hooves (not a whale). Out of the trillions of fossils being constantly uncovered, is that the best you got? Dont tell me about the Lucy fossil next, please. Now this point is really silly, **for creationists** those gaps were the best that they got, hundreds of years after Darwin we are finding more and more transitional forms, in other words, confirmation that evolution took place. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/56 "2012-07-11T14:03:27Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > And here we go with ‘tons of examples’. There are trillions of fossils and thousands of different kinds of animals. Surely you can find something? Notice how your horse starts as a horse, and ends as a horse. You do realize that every individual fossil is only going to be one thing, right? What exactly are you expecting, a fossil that visibly shifts forms while you look at it? You go to older strata and you find one form. You go to newer strata and you find incremental steps to another. In any case, the evidence for evolution is so vast and overwhelming that ignorance is the only excuse for not believing it. Contrast this with the evidence for magic Jesus. There is no evidence for magic Jesus. Jesus, if he existed died a long time ago and he’s still dead. He didn’t nuke any fig trees, or heal any lepers. He was just a guy, who was murdered by some other guys and a third set of guys started a religion based on Him. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/57 "2012-07-11T14:03:47Z")
> [@Rubixcube](#): > > Sure humans have ear muscles and tail bones, neither of which are useful. But the textbook case of vestigial organs are the blind mole rats, who have eyes rendered entirely useless because they have a layer of skin completely covering them. Evolution would predict these kinds of things. The tailbone has about 9 muscles ATTACHED to the bone. Without them, you cant go to the bathroom. If you dont believe me, remove those muscles and your tailbone and see how long you last. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/58 "2012-07-11T14:04:59Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You do realize that every individual fossil is only going to be one thing, right? > > What exactly are you expecting, a fossil that visibly shifts forms while you look at it? > You go to older strata and you find one form. You go to newer strata and you find incremental steps to another. > > In any case, the evidence for evolution is so vast and overwhelming that ignorance is the only excuse for not believing it. > > Contrast this with the evidence for magic Jesus. There is no evidence for magic Jesus. Jesus, if he existed died a long time ago and he’s still dead. He didn’t nuke any fig trees, or heal any lepers. He was just a guy, who was murdered by some other guys and a third set of guys started a religion based on Him. Post these incremental steps please. Show me where the geologic column exists anywhere (besides the textbook). ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/59 "2012-07-11T14:05:59Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Now this point is really silly, **for creationists** those gaps were the best that they got, hundreds of years after Darwin we are finding more and more transitional forms, in other words, confirmation that evolution took place. Post these transitional forms, please. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/60 "2012-07-11T14:07:21Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > That doesn’t have anything to do with evolution. Cosmic evolution (aka the big bang) has nothing to do with evolution? Its not my theory, its the evolutionists’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=4)