# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/581 "2012-07-16T02:15:46Z")
Maybe there is something going on in their minds that is tied to the religious belief that Man is a special creation. So, by that thinking, the Believer is a Special Man and therefore is gifted with Special Discernment. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/582 "2012-07-16T02:49:48Z")
I agree that it is a kind of “special” thinking. To me, it seems more like the ideal of the little boy who is the first to see that the Emperor is naked. “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.” 1 Corinthians 3:19 The temptation of this idea is alluring; it’s nice to be the one guy in a crowd who has the common sense to see what ought to be obvious. Most of all celebrate [Alan Sokal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair) for his paper – an example of the Poe Effect! – that lampooned post-modernism so dryly that the post-modernists themselves failed to see that it was parody. The real problem here is that actual science isn’t subject to that kind of hoax. People who actually work with DNA know about the chirality issue, and have solved it long ago. If right-handed amino acids were a disproof of evolution, the whole theory would have been thrown out long ago. However, the bright spot in all of this is that these threads can be educational. I’d never heard of apomixis before **Zyada** just alluded to it, and so I, at least, come away from this discussion improved! ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/583 "2012-07-17T01:00:37Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Just missed the edit window. Wanted to add: > I’ve asked this question of several different creationists so far, and have had no answer beyond a resounding silence. Not even the standard “we can’t understand God’s motives” creationist non-answer. Looks like this record will continue, unbroken. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/584 "2012-07-17T13:12:42Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Revelation 19: 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. > > 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. > > 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. > > 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. > > 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. > > I dont think so. According to Matthew Chapter 15 verse 24(If Jesus was quoted correctly) he said he only came for the House of Israel, that would mean he didn’t come for all people. And if Matthew and Mark are correct then the Book of Revelations would be null and void!Jesus would have already returned in His Father’s Glory with his angels in the 1st Century. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/585 "2012-07-17T16:17:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > One of the things that always irks me about this class of creationist – and it applies to people who dispute Einstein, too – is that they think they can win the debate at a very simple level of technical discourse. It’s as if evolution – or relativity – can be disproven at the Junior High School level of scientific knowledge. > > If this were so – if a hydraulics engineer can see how it is all completely false – then what are tens of thousands of people doing in our universities? What are the biologists actually working on? It’s as if they – and Hawking, Penrose, and others – are all secretly writing “All Work and No Play” on reams of paper, hoping that no one will catch wise. Well actually this particular creationist did address your concern. Remember the thread title? IIRC from the first few pages of this wreck, he started this thread because evolution, scientists, school teachers, text book publishers, universities are all part of an Illuminati conspiracy to remove god from our lives. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/586 "2012-07-17T16:22:16Z")
OP hasn’t been online since the 15th. Show’s over folks, you don’t have to go home but you can’t stay here. _slowly pushes broom across littered floor_ ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/587 "2012-07-17T16:52:26Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > OP hasn’t been online since the 15th. Show’s over folks, you don’t have to go home but you can’t stay here. > > _slowly pushes broom across littered floor_ Was there a balloon drop?? I missed the balloon drop!! ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/588 "2012-07-17T17:21:24Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > OP hasn’t been online since the 15th. Show’s over folks, you don’t have to go home but you can’t stay here. > > _slowly pushes broom across littered floor_ Don’t count him out. Last time he returned to a thread after three years. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/589 "2012-07-17T17:29:02Z")
The problem was that we quit answering questions that had already been answered, and starting _asking_ them. Creationism itself is designed almost entirely for attacking real science-there is almost nothing there of substance to defend. Unlike real science, it starts with the conclusion and accepts only that which supports it, no matter how nebulous. edited to add: I suggest that, if he _does_ return, we not let him ask yet another series of questions and tell him that it is still his turn in the witness box(pun intended). ---
**Author:** ![BunnyTVS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BunnyTVS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BunnyTVS)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/590 "2012-07-17T17:38:24Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Don’t count him out. > Last time he returned to a thread after three years. Perhaps a year to us is but a day to him… [Oh Fuck!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IKZaLJ6Q50) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/591 "2012-07-17T17:56:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Creationism itself is designed almost entirely for attacking real science-there is almost nothing there of substance to defend. Unlike real science, it starts with the conclusion and accepts only that which supports it, no matter how nebulous. [Sounds familiar.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=658397) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/592 "2012-07-18T05:58:11Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Maybe there is something going on in their minds that is tied to the religious belief that Man is a special creation. So, by that thinking, the Believer is a Special Man and therefore is gifted with Special Discernment. Or the converse, if we aren’t special then we are animals. We have no ability or inclination to seek anything other than beasts. Whatever is special about us exists because of something outside ourselves and we better ourselves by being more like it. I get it. But there is another way of looking at it. We _are_ animals. We have risen tooth and claw and wit to a secure future for our species. It seems our brains became overdeveloped because we found a need to use them past the immediate need for survival and thereby be forced to contemplate the meaning of our existence. There _must_ be significance because we can contemplate it right? How about no. How about we have been given a statistical gift in being able to enjoy life in a far more diverse way than any other living thing. A hawk can see better than I can, a dog can smell better than I ever will be able to, but I have the opportunity to live a better and fuller life. And there doesn’t have to be a why. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/593 "2012-07-18T06:04:01Z")
Or maybe I’m wrong and a human in a dangerous situation won’t have base instincts like survival. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/594 "2012-07-20T18:56:42Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > If you listen to Jesus, you would have listened to the teachings of Genesis also. Its the opposite of the big bang and primordial soup. Actually, since evolution was put in the public school books in the '60s, the crime rate has increased steadily. If you teach little kids that they come from animals, or that they are animals, chances are they will behave like one. What about the crime rate long before eveloution was even thought about? One can look back into the past centuries and see that some people wiped out whole cities because they believed their God wanted the land etc. just for them…didn’t even consider his other children. There has always ben crime, just wasn’t recorded as it is now. Years ago when I was around 12 there were 2 murders in our neighborhood, I lived on a farm so we had few neighbors. Media was not able to contact all the people then, and so it sounds like there wasn’t as much crime,but those of us in our 80’s can tell you everything wasn’t perfect, and the crime wasn’t from atheistic believers.Now we hear of crime all over the country and world! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/595 "2012-07-20T19:29:53Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > What about the crime rate long before eveloution was even thought about? One can look back into the past centuries and see that some people wiped out whole cities because they believed their God wanted the land etc. just for them…didn’t even consider his other children. > > There has always ben crime, just wasn’t recorded as it is now. Years ago when I was around 12 there were 2 murders in our neighborhood, I lived on a farm so we had few neighbors. Media was not able to contact all the people then, and so it sounds like there wasn’t as much crime,but those of us in our 80’s can tell you everything wasn’t perfect, and the crime wasn’t from atheistic believers.Now we hear of crime all over the country and world! Steve Pinker has a book on this, and it seems that the murder rates has decline precipitously over time, and is now at its lowest level in history. Heck, in the Bible is was 25%! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/596 "2012-07-20T20:06:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Heck, in the Bible is was 25%! Heh, I think that might be a bit off, since they had wives. Although, if you accept God’s willful use of the flood, it’s well in excess of 99%. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/597 "2012-07-20T20:07:12Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > . . . If you teach little kids that they come from animals, or that they are animals, chances are they will behave like one. Good reason not to teach the doctrine of original sin. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/598 "2012-07-20T20:40:12Z")
Wait a minute. Children aren’t animals? Behaviour aside, does that make them plants or minerals? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/599 "2012-07-20T20:41:57Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Wait a minute. Children aren’t animals? Behaviour aside, does that make them plants or minerals? Why… Little Angels, of course! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/600 "2012-07-21T11:54:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How long ago did life begin on this planet? > Where is the evidence for a world-wide flood? > How many animals did Noah have in that ark? I would add…How did 19,000 feet of water evaporate in a years time,wouldn’t the steam from the evaporation be so heavy they would not have been able to breath? There was no place for it to run off, plus, if only the top of Mt Ararat is where the ark landed there would still have been 15,000 feet when it landed! How far could a koala bear swim to get to Australia etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=31)