# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/621 "2012-09-08T12:25:09Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > A quick question, when people say genetic mutations are “random” do they mean random in that the mechanisms for producing them are complex and poorly understood, and hard to predict… or that they are theoretically random like radioactive decay (proven to be impossible to predict when exactly decay will occur)? > > If they aren’t theoretically random, then calling them random seems to do evolution a disservice and stopping such terminology would eliminate this entirely silly argument about randomness and chance. Mutations themselves are random. We know many mechanisms that cause them, but any nucleotide can randomly change to any other nucleotide in an unpredictable manner. Roughly speaking, every nucleotide in the genome has the same chance of being mutated\*. So it is fair to say that mutations are truly random. What opponents of evolution, who like to yammer on about how impossible it is because it’s all supposedly done by random chance, consistently ignore is the fact that _selection_ is very definitely not random. Hence the name “selection”. Mutation provides genetic diversity; selection picks which one work and survive. \*As with every rule and generalization in biology, exceptions abound. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/622 "2012-09-08T13:21:33Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Name a beneficial mutation, and you might have a point. Happily. There are [tons](http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html). Adaptation to High and Low Temperatures by E. coli Adaptation to Growth in the Dark by Chlamydomonas Selection for Large Size in Chlamydomomas The aforementioned anti-biotic resistant bacteria For a pretty spectacular one in humans, how about [this one](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5278028/#.UEtGECJ5DIY): A very muscular baby was born in Germany. Doctors found that the boy’s mutant DNA segment was found to block production of a protein called myostatin that limits muscle growth. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/623 "2012-09-08T23:04:49Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Name a beneficial mutation, and you might have a point. Lactose persistance: Most mammals develp lactose intolrance as they grow into adulthood. Several human populations have undergone a mutation that inhibits lactose intolerace, meaning that those populations can continue to use milk and dairy products to feed adult populations. This means that rather than having to slaughter cattle or goats to survive, they can allow those animals to graze on grasses, then continue to use the same animals as sources of food for several years, feeding adults as well as children. (Strangely enough) Sickle Cell Trait: The creation of sickle cells disrupts the life cycle of blood born parasites (particularly _Plasmodium falciparum_), giving an advantage to carriers of the Sickle Cell Trait over their neighbors who do not have it. That is why Sickle Cell Disease is pretty much endemic to large areas of Africa, Southern Europe, and Southwest Asia in exactly the ranges of malaria-bearing mosquitoes. Of course, it also has the disadvantage of making people sick if both parents happen to carry the gene, but such people tend to live long enough to procreate, themselves, so the overall advantage to the population remains. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/624 "2013-05-29T23:00:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Lactose persistance: > Most mammals develp lactose intolrance as they grow into adulthood. Several human populations have undergone a mutation that inhibits lactose intolerace, meaning that those populations can continue to use milk and dairy products to feed adult populations. This means that rather than having to slaughter cattle or goats to survive, they can allow those animals to graze on grasses, then continue to use the same animals as sources of food for several years, feeding adults as well as children. > > (Strangely enough) Sickle Cell Trait: > The creation of sickle cells disrupts the life cycle of blood born parasites (particularly _Plasmodium falciparum_), giving an advantage to carriers of the Sickle Cell Trait over their neighbors who do not have it. That is why Sickle Cell Disease is pretty much endemic to large areas of Africa, Southern Europe, and Southwest Asia in exactly the ranges of malaria-bearing mosquitoes. Of course, it also has the disadvantage of making people sick if both parents happen to carry the gene, but such people tend to live long enough to procreate, themselves, so the overall advantage to the population remains. Both are examples of natural selection, along with the previous example from DT of ‘diseases acquire mutations that give them resistance against antibiotics’.. The information was always in the gene code, and was selected upon. It may be beneficial in the sense that it helped that population survive, but by no means do any of these mutations add genetic information to the genome that wasnt already there, nor increase the complexity of it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/625 "2013-05-29T23:07:00Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > It may be beneficial in the sense that it helped that population survive, Thus refuting your spurious claim. > [@reef\_shark](#): > > but by no means do any of these mutations add genetic information to the genome that wasnt already there, nor increase the complexity of it. Really? Where is your evidence for this unsupported claim? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/626 "2013-05-29T23:15:18Z")
8 months\*\* reef shark\*\*, and that is the best argument you’ve been able to construct? A cite or something else, _please_, god help us. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/627 "2013-05-30T01:27:16Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Both are examples of natural selection, along with the previous example from DT of ‘diseases acquire mutations that give them resistance against antibiotics’.. The information was always in the gene code, and was selected upon. It may be beneficial in the sense that it helped that population survive, but by no means do any of these mutations add genetic information to the genome that wasnt already there, nor increase the complexity of it. I saw that “no information is added” point before, it is still an old debunked chestnut. > **[CB102: Mutations adding information](http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html)** > [@](#): > > Response: > > ``` > It is hard to understand how anyone could make this claim, since anything mutations can do, mutations can undo. Some mutations add information to a genome; some subtract it. Creationists get by with this claim only by leaving the term "information" undefined, impossibly vague, or constantly shifting. By any reasonable definition, increases in information have been observed to evolve. We have observed the evolution of > > increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995; Lenski et al. 1991) > increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001; Brown et al. 1998; Hughes and Friedman 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000; Ohta 2003) > novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996; Park et al. 1996) > novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995) > > If these do not qualify as information, then nothing about information is relevant to evolution in the first place. > > A mechanism that is likely to be particularly common for adding information is gene duplication, in which a long stretch of DNA is copied, followed by point mutations that change one or both of the copies. Genetic sequencing has revealed several instances in which this is likely the origin of some proteins. For example: > Two enzymes in the histidine biosynthesis pathway that are barrel-shaped, structural and sequence evidence suggests, were formed via gene duplication and fusion of two half-barrel ancestors (Lang et al. 2000). > RNASE1, a gene for a pancreatic enzyme, was duplicated, and in langur monkeys one of the copies mutated into RNASE1B, which works better in the more acidic small intestine of the langur. (Zhang et al. 2002) > Yeast was put in a medium with very little sugar. After 450 generations, hexose transport genes had duplicated several times, and some of the duplicated versions had mutated further. (Brown et al. 1998) > The biological literature is full of additional examples. A PubMed search (at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi) on "gene duplication" gives more than 3000 references. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/628 "2013-05-30T03:43:11Z")
It’s hard, philosophically, for people operating at an intuitive or common-sense level to see how random processes can convey information. There is a strong philosophical prejudice that information can only be by intelligent design. But (to repeat) such things as the evenly-spaced furrows of sand-dunes in a desert contain “information” – the evenness of the spacing is information: it allows you to make a good guess about where the next sand dune will be found. And it’s produced by wind and sand, without ever a hand or mind involved. It’s information that comes from the energy of the wind, and from the nature of sand itself. Same for mutations, especially under the winnowing process of differential survival. It doesn’t “feel” right to the Aristotelian mind – but we left Aristotle behind a long, long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![nickak2003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea666f/32.png) [@nickak2003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nickak2003)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/629 "2013-05-30T10:13:28Z")
“macro” evolution in recent times: > **[Lizards Undergo Rapid Evolution After Introduction To A New Home](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm)** > > In 1971, biologists moved five adult pairs of Italian wall lizards from their home island of Pod Kopiste, in the South Adriatic Sea, to the neighboring island of Pod Mrcaru. Now researchers have shown that introducing these small, green-backed... > **[National Geographic](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/)** > > Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration. > **[No Reality TV Show: Lizards Stranded On Islands Show Evolution At Work](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/lizards-evolution-islands_n_1250856)** > > No Reality TV Show: Lizards Stranded On Islands Show Evolution At Work > **[National Geographic](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/)** > > Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration. The process of evolution using genetics and specifically, mutation, has been demonstrated with genetic algorithms very successfully. Genetic algorithms have designed: jet engines, antenna used on satellites ( google “genetic antenna” for some cool pics ), pylons used on the international space station, and much more. Ecosystem simulators that started with simple asexual agents evolved sexual reproduction, sometimes between more than two partners; and the development of symbiotic relationships is quite common. Genetic algorithms are able to design things that no human could ever comprehend to design, and this is obvious if you look at genetically developed antenna. The theory of evolution has been irrefutably proven using computer science. Sometime in the near future, all complicated engineering and science is going to use genetic algorithms - that’s how successful and powerful they are at transversing solution spaces. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/630 "2013-05-30T16:45:13Z")
> [@nickak2003](#): > > The theory of evolution has been irrefutably proven using computer science. Sometime in the near future, all complicated engineering and science is going to use genetic algorithms - that’s how successful and powerful they are at transversing solution spaces. Well, not quite. GAs demonstrate that evolution could be responsible for the complexity of living things, but do not prove that it is responsible. DNA, the fossil record, and experiments do that. And you are almost certainly wrong about the use of GAs in the future. They represent one technique for traversing search spaces, but not a particularly efficient one. Given any domain knowledge, you can design a far more efficient search algorithm, that will give the desired results in a lot less time. For instance, researchers have developed GAs for generating tests for integrated circuits - but no one in the real world uses them. You can develop far more efficient methods, for instance using knowledge about the circuit to direct which path to take in the search tree. That biological evolution is responsible for the diversity and development of life just demonstrates that there are no brains behind our development. If there were, we could have been here in 50 million years tops with a lot fewer extinctions on the way. ---
**Author:** ![nickak2003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea666f/32.png) [@nickak2003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nickak2003)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/631 "2013-06-01T07:57:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Well, not quite. GAs demonstrate that evolution could be responsible for the complexity of living things, but do not prove that it is responsible. DNA, the fossil record, and experiments do that. > > And you are almost certainly wrong about the use of GAs in the future. They represent one technique for traversing search spaces, but not a particularly efficient one. Given any domain knowledge, you can design a far more efficient search algorithm, that will give the desired results in a lot less time. For instance, researchers have developed GAs for generating tests for integrated circuits - but no one in the real world uses them. You can develop far more efficient methods, for instance using knowledge about the circuit to direct which path to take in the search tree. > That biological evolution is responsible for the diversity and development of life just demonstrates that there are no brains behind our development. If there were, we could have been here in 50 million years tops with a lot fewer extinctions on the way. You don’t seem to know anything about genetic algorithms. Genetic algorithms and their kin are the ultimate tool for inventing solutions to complex, multi dimensional problems, and np-complete problems. There are no superior algorithms (if you know of one, please cite). Furthermore, GAs can come up with solutions to problems radically faster than human counterparts (if the humans come up with a solution at all ), which means that GAs are at least useful at quick prototyping. Humans cannot design better than GAs just because they have knowledge of the systems. GAs search solution spaces without any knowledge, presumptions or prejudices - and while that sounds counter-intuitive, it actually means they can come up with solutions beyond human comprehension, which they routinely do. Read this: > **[USNews: Putting evolution to work on the assembly line (7/27/98)](http://www.genetic-programming.com/published/usnwr072798.html)** > > U.S.News & World Report Here’s an example of hard science using GAs: [http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009PhDT.........2H](http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009PhDT.........2H) and finally: > **[List of genetic algorithm applications](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_algorithm_applications)** > > This is a list of genetic algorithm (GA) applications. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/632 "2013-06-09T21:57:24Z")
From a fellow GLPer: > **[The Jerusalem Temple that Jesus cleansed was a huge corporate banking system....](https://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2258190/pg1)** > > Did you guys know that the Jerusalem temple was mainly a bank and a banking system? And that when Jesus cleansed the temple, he was rising against its corrupt banking system? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/633 "2013-06-09T22:01:04Z")
> [@nickak2003](#): > > “macro” evolution in recent times: > [Lizards Undergo Rapid Evolution After Introduction To A New Home | ScienceDaily](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm) > [National Geographic](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html) > [Lizard Evolution Study Strands Reptiles On Islands In Bahamas | HuffPost Impact](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/03/lizards-evolution-islands_n_1250856.html) > > [National Geographic](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/100901-science-animals-evolution-australia-lizard-skink-live-birth-eggs/) > The process of evolution using genetics and specifically, mutation, has been demonstrated with genetic algorithms very successfully. > > Genetic algorithms have designed: jet engines, antenna used on satellites > ( google “genetic antenna” for some cool pics ), pylons used on the international space station, and much more. Ecosystem simulators that started with simple asexual agents evolved sexual reproduction, sometimes between more than two partners; and the development of symbiotic relationships is quite common. > > Genetic algorithms are able to design things that no human could ever comprehend to design, and this is obvious if you look at genetically developed antenna. > > The theory of evolution has been irrefutably proven using computer science. Sometime in the near future, all complicated engineering and science is going to use genetic algorithms - that’s how successful and powerful they are at transversing solution spaces. DNA only arises from previous DNA. This is all that has ever been observed. DNA requires complex de-coding machines including the ribosome, so it can be decoded into the specifications to build the proteins required for life. The information required to build ribosomes is itself encoded in the DNA, so DNA info cannot be encoded without its products of translation, forming a vicious circle. GAs explain none of this. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/634 "2013-06-09T22:39:00Z")
What is the relevance of the economics of the temple at Jerusalem? And, yes, genetic algorithms explain the origin of information from non-information. We’ve covered that all here. The flow of energy through a system can impart information to that system. It is demonstrated daily. Boil a saucepan of water. The water will organize itself into columns of circulating water. That is information. It’s a very simple level of information, but it is information that did not exist prior to the flow of energy. Do stuff like this for a billion years, and you might be astonished. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/635 "2013-06-10T00:31:59Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > DNA only arises from previous DNA. This is all that has ever been observed. [False.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_polymerase#Reverse_transcriptase) ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/636 "2013-06-10T04:06:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The Devil added the feathers! Or possibly the Illuminati. Could you clarify this, please? Do you mean “The Devil added the feathers! Or possibly the Illuminati _added the feathers_.”? Or do you mean “The Devil added the feathers! Or possibly _the Devil added_ the Illuminati.”? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/637 "2013-06-10T15:41:44Z")
By the way, reef shark, don’t think we haven’t noticed that you completely ignored the “whale legs” discussion once you were proved wrong. Don’t you have any response? Do you concede that you were incorrect? Or are you just going to keep moving the goalposts around to avoid having to acknowledge facts that you find uncomfortable? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/638 "2013-06-13T01:01:22Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Could you clarify this, please? > > Do you mean “The Devil added the feathers! Or possibly the Illuminati _added the feathers_.”? > > Or do you mean “The Devil added the feathers! Or possibly _the Devil added_ the Illuminati.”? The Devil and the Illuminati were both addled by the feathers. NSFW, if you’re boss is Will Hays: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTEIWK9CaEs&list=PL06A4A3A004E3D610](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTEIWK9CaEs&list=PL06A4A3A004E3D610) ---
**Author:** ![Pooter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/41988e/32.png) [@Pooter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pooter)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/639 "2013-06-14T15:24:42Z")
Be funny if Jesus came back and said the he didn’t think the Illuminati weren’t too bright… Be ironic if God made Adam from his rib, like God made woman from Adam’s rib, that would prove both creation and evolution wrong. If the Sun is the source of illumination, the idea of God making the two great lights on earth leaves me in the dark about those who take idea of rotating their tires too lightly. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/640 "2013-06-14T15:37:19Z")
Well, thank you for your contribution. It’s nice to have that finally all settled. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=31)