# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/101 "2012-07-11T14:36:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > _That’s_ where you’re going with all of this? Then yes, by all means, let’s do the whole Illuminati vs. Jesus in re: evolution discussion in this thread. Good luck. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/102 "2012-07-11T14:36:46Z")
Now explain why we should care if actual science disagrees with bronze age mythology. I mean, it turns out science says there’s no known mechanism for turning a person to stone, yet I don’t run around using the story of Medusa as evidence for the existence of said process. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/103 "2012-07-11T14:37:04Z")
Are train wrecks a tool of the Illuminati or Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/104 "2012-07-11T14:37:21Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Evolution is completely contrary to the bible. On this we agree. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/105 "2012-07-11T14:38:37Z")
reef shark, in post #25 you claimed that the crime rate has gone up since 1960. In post #30, iiandyiiii gave a citation showing that this is clearly not true. Here’s another citation showing that it’s not true with a chart: > **[Crime in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States)** > > Crime has been recorded in the United States since its founding and has fluctuated significantly over time. Crime rates have varied over time, with a sharp rise after 1900 and reaching a broad bulging peak between the 1970s and early 1990s. After 1992, crime rates began to fall year by year and have since declined significantly. This trend lasted until 2001, when crime rates began to rise slightly until dropping again the next year and continued declining again until 2006 then levered back downwa... What’s your reaction to being shown that you’re wrong about this? Or don’t you think that this proves that you’re wrong? Is it your contention that everything you say is true by definition and that any citation showing that you’re wrong is obviously a lie? Why haven’t you made a reply to this? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/106 "2012-07-11T14:38:37Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Let me simplify for you: I believe the illuminati is behind the scam known as evolution. Evolution is completely contrary to the bible. Is this easier to understand for you? So tell us the T_R_U_T_H-How long ago did life begin on this planet? ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/107 "2012-07-11T14:41:42Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Let me simplify for you: I believe the illuminati is behind the scam known as evolution. Evolution is completely contrary to the bible. Is this easier to understand for you? So you’re saying that there’s a group of people who control virtually the entire textbook industry, most of the public education, virtually every scientist in the world, and have somehow been doing it for hundreds of years even predating the era of even reasonably fast international communication. _And_ that this group which would consist of millions hasn’t left a shred of evidence for they’re existence other than the fact that science contradicts a book written thousands of years ago? I get the feeling this will be a very entertaining thread. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/108 "2012-07-11T14:43:22Z")
For the record, the content of textbooks is mostly controlled by textbook purchasers (the state of Texas is very powerful), and if you don’t believe the Bible is a scientific document in the first place, the fact that evolution contradicts the Bible is not a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/109 "2012-07-11T14:49:18Z")
Still even with that the OP has mentioned previously that he believes the Vatican and the U.S. Government are Illuminati controlled. And based on his arguments regarding Pearl Harbor and 9/11 they would also need to have some control in regards to Japan and terrorist organizations. A organization this large will also need people to oversee strategy and communication, and to cover all their tracks and move their money, so add massive amounts of people to that. Every time you even consider a conspiracy of this size you find more holes to patch, which require even more people to be in on it, which just opens even more holes to patch. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/110 "2012-07-11T14:51:10Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > reef shark, in post #25 you claimed that the crime rate has gone up since 1960. In post #30, iiandyiiii gave a citation showing that this is clearly not true. Here’s another citation showing that it’s not true with a chart: > > [Crime in the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States) > > What’s your reaction to being shown that you’re wrong about this? Or don’t you think that this proves that you’re wrong? Is it your contention that everything you say is true by definition and that any citation showing that you’re wrong is obviously a lie? Why haven’t you made a reply to this? Youre right there looks to be a sudden decline in the 90s. I would guess the gun control laws and increased police have a lot to do with it. I was simply pointing out the immediate coincidence of crime skyrocketing and evolution being put into the curriculum. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/111 "2012-07-11T14:51:15Z")
Does anyone else get the impression that the OP has brought a Nerf ball to a gunfight? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/112 "2012-07-11T14:52:46Z")
> [@Rubixcube](#): > > Still even with that the OP has mentioned previously that he believes the Vatican and the U.S. Government are Illuminati controlled. And based on his arguments regarding Pearl Harbor and 9/11 they would also need to have some control in regards to Japan and terrorist organizations. A organization this large will also need people to oversee strategy and communication, and to cover all their tracks and move their money, so add massive amounts of people to that. Every time you even consider a conspiracy of this size you find more holes to patch, which require even more people to be in on it, which just opens even more holes to patch. Yep, JFK thought that too. https://www.youtube.com/embed/xhZk8ronces?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/113 "2012-07-11T14:56:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > For the record, the content of textbooks is mostly controlled by textbook purchasers (the state of Texas is very powerful), and if you don’t believe the Bible is a scientific document in the first place, the fact that evolution contradicts the Bible is not a problem. I agree, the textbook purchasers are the public schools. They use the funding from our taxes. If a public school deviates from the ‘curriculum’, they might not get that funding anymore, however. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/114 "2012-07-11T15:03:06Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Yep, JFK thought that too. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhZk8ronces](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhZk8ronces) That speech is not about secret societies. [Here is the transcript.](http://www.jfklibrary.org/Research/Ready-Reference/JFK-Speeches/The-President-and-the-Press-Address-before-the-American-Newspaper-Publishers-Association.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/115 "2012-07-11T15:03:17Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > You can try to give evidence for evolution too. Its all connected. Yes, the “Designer” guiding evolution in Intelligent-Design theory is always implied to be God – but it wasn’t, it was really the Illuminati (it’s amazing what a secret society can do if they have a time machine and no regard for causal paradoxes). As for Jesus, he was a gene-engineering project that the High Masters’ Planning Committee now regrets rubberstamping. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/116 "2012-07-11T15:04:00Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > If a public school deviates from the ‘curriculum’, they might not get that funding anymore, however. I don’t think you understand how this works. The textbooks are bought by large associations of public schools because they get better prices when they pool together. The schools don’t make this decision individually, so there’s little to no risk a school is going to go off the reservation and buy textbooks on its own. There’s also basically no chance a state is going to defund all its schools for buying the wrong books. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/117 "2012-07-11T15:04:07Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > I agree, the textbook purchasers are the public schools. They use the funding from our taxes. If a public school deviates from the ‘curriculum’, they might not get that funding anymore, however. Who sets the curriculum? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/118 "2012-07-11T15:06:09Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Youre right there looks to be a sudden decline in the 90s. I would guess the gun control laws and increased police have a lot to do with it. I was simply pointing out the immediate coincidence of crime skyrocketing and evolution being put into the curriculum. So basically, you have no point here- just throwing a dart at the dartboard (and missing). ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/119 "2012-07-11T15:07:31Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > I believe they are connected. There is a group of people controlling which textbooks to put out to the public schools, which everybody has to pay taxes for. However, I will stick more to the evolution aspect to stay out of trouble here, if thats what you prefer. So this whole thread is about the Texas State Board of Education and its efforts to weaken science education and inject religion into public education? It’s weird because you keep implying it’s an anti-religion secret conspiracy when it’s actually pro-religion and not at all secret. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/120 "2012-07-11T15:12:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think you understand how this works. The textbooks are bought by large associations of public schools because they get better prices when they pool together. The schools don’t make this decision individually, so there’s little to no risk a school is going to go off the reservation and buy textbooks on its own. There’s also basically no chance a state is going to defund all its schools for buying the wrong books. Well I am only talking science books here, and there are hundreds of them. And these large associations all seem to teach evolution as fact. It would be almost impossible to find a science book in a public school that doesnt stress the evolution theory as fact. So this makes sense. Parents who dont want their kids learning this enroll them in private or home schooling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=7)