# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/141 "2012-07-11T15:30:30Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > When you do the math, **reef shark** is the only one who is not in on it. > > _Shhhhhh!!_ We’ve got his IP address, the black helicopters have been sent, they should take him down within an hour… oh shit this is the public channel… sorry nothing to see here. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/142 "2012-07-11T15:30:48Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > And he said he was a patsy, right before he was killed by Ruby. And he was lying. > [@reef\_shark](#): > > Can you please tell me one fact about evolution? Again, im not talking about natural selection. Thats the whole crux of the debate. A lot of facts about evolution have already been posted. I have never seen anyone draw a distinction between evolution and natural selection, and I suspect this is some nitpicking that is only meaningful to people who deny evolution. So I need you to explain what you’re talking about and what it means. > [@reef\_shark](#): > > Because randomness and sheer chance cannot make all these fragile balances. And then intelligent life on top of it. Cite? > [@](#): > > Randomness and chance explains nothing. I don’t think those are very accurate descriptions. There’s no intelligent designer behind evolution, but saying it’s ‘random chance’ without acknowledging that it’s a process that is influenced by external conditions is a little off, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/143 "2012-07-11T15:31:56Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Because randomness and sheer chance cannot make all these fragile balances. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/144 "2012-07-11T15:35:47Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > But if what the chart and the figures show is that the rise in the crime rate and the (supposed) putting of evolution into the curriculum in 1960 aren’t correlated with each other, then it shows that your hypothesis is false. Evolution didn’t disappear from the curriculum in 1990. Your hypothesis would claim that they are correlated all the time, and they clearly aren’t. There are other problems with your hypothesis. Evolution wasn’t suddenly put into the curriculum in 1960. It had been there for a long time. Furthermore, why would the entry of evolution into the curriculum immediately affect the crime rate? If studying evolution causes children to become criminals, you would expect that it would take a few years for them to graduate and become criminals. > > Either find statistics that show that crime is correlated with the entry of evolution in the school curriculum or admit that you’re wrong about that. You could just look at the 70s and 80s, and say my whole hypothesis was right. You would think that after 2 decades of dramatic increase, that there might be changes to offset this ( stricter gun laws, more police). Link or source on evolution being put in public schools’ curriculums before the 60s? ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/145 "2012-07-11T15:37:52Z")
It is important to note that the OP has yet to posit an alternate explanation for the current level of biodiversity on the planet. Such a hypothesis should be presented, experiments designed, and observations made that support the hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/146 "2012-07-11T15:39:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And he was lying. > A lot of facts about evolution have already been posted. I have never seen anyone draw a distinction between evolution and natural selection, and I suspect this is some nitpicking that is only meaningful to people who deny evolution. So I need you to explain what you’re talking about and what it means. > Cite? > I don’t think those are very accurate descriptions. There’s no intelligent designer behind evolution, but saying it’s ‘random chance’ without acknowledging that it’s a process that is influenced by external conditions is a little off, I think. I really would like specific ‘facts’ about evolution. And a link or source showing randomness and chance can create the human DNA. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/147 "2012-07-11T15:39:39Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > You could just look at the 70s and 80s, and say my whole hypothesis was right. You would think that after 2 decades of dramatic increase, that there might be changes to offset this ( stricter gun laws, more police). Link or source on evolution being put in public schools’ curriculums before the 60s? Post hoc fallacy. You’ve not put forth any evidence that an increase in crime is even related to the teaching of evolution in schools. What mechanism are you proposing for this? “Argh, accumulated change over time?! What rot! I think I’ll smash some windows!”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/148 "2012-07-11T15:40:04Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > You could just look at the 70s and 80s, and say my whole hypothesis was right. I can do you one better: I can look at the 70s and 80s and say my grass needs cutting. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/149 "2012-07-11T15:41:11Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > I really would like specific ‘facts’ about evolution. And a link or source showing randomness and chance can create the human DNA. And your alternate theory is…? ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/150 "2012-07-11T15:41:41Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Can you please tell me one fact about evolution? Again, im not talking about natural selection. Thats the whole crux of the debate. Why is that the crux of the debate? Are you dismissing natural selection without even allowing for arguments? Because it sounds to me like you’re just attempting to artificially handicap those arguing against you. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/151 "2012-07-11T15:41:42Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > It is important to note that the OP has yet to posit an alternate explanation for the current level of biodiversity on the planet. Such a hypothesis should be presented, experiments designed, and observations made that support the hypothesis. The King James bible is my alternate explanation. All we ever observe are animals bringing forth after their kind, through reproduction. Theres never been a macro change into a different animal. This is science. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/152 "2012-07-11T15:42:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And your alternate theory is…? Magic, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/153 "2012-07-11T15:44:41Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Let me simplify for you: I believe the illuminati is behind the scam known as evolution. Evolution is completely contrary to the bible. Is this easier to understand for you? This actually makes a lot of sense. God created the world and men. Bu tthen men formed the Illuminati. The Illumnati wanted to be more powerful than God, so they created evolution. Then God flooded the world to try to kill the Illumanti and stop evolution, but some of the Illuminati escaped and evolution continued forward, despite God’s attempts. But now, with Jesus offering the second covenant, God has abdicated the war against the Illuminati. Hence the quesiton: How should Jesus combat the Illuminati? You see, evolution is just a proxy war - if we can stop evolution, we can stop the Illumanti. Also bankers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/154 "2012-07-11T15:44:46Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > The King James bible is my alternate explanation. > > All we ever observe are animals bringing forth after their kind, through reproduction. Theres never been a macro change into a different animal. This is science. According to your Bible, when did life begin on this planet? Does fear of The Illuminati stop you from answering this question? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/155 "2012-07-11T15:45:37Z")
[Lizard species changing from egglaying to live birth.](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/100901-science-animals-evolution-australia-lizard-skink-live-birth-eggs/) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/156 "2012-07-11T15:46:25Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > I really would like specific ‘facts’ about evolution. Specific facts have already been posted. What do you want to see? > [@](#): > > And a link or source showing randomness and chance can create the human DNA. Evolutionary theory doesn’t contend that “randomness and chance” created our DNA. The theory is that our DNA evolved to its current state over time, and there is more than enough evidence that it did so. > [@reef\_shark](#): > > Link or source on evolution being put in public schools’ curriculums before the 60s? Consider the fact that the state of Tennessee passed a law in response to the teaching of evolution in public schools _in 1925_, resulting in the Scopes trial. > [@reef\_shark](#): > > Theres never been a macro change into a different animal. This is science. That’s not science, it’s blather that is only meaningful to creationists. Examples of the chain of evolution from one species to another have already been posted. Evolution doesn’t require animals to suddenly give birth to animals of another species. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/157 "2012-07-11T15:46:33Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Post hoc fallacy. You’ve not put forth any evidence that an increase in crime is even related to the teaching of evolution in schools. What mechanism are you proposing for this? “Argh, accumulated change over time?! What rot! I think I’ll smash some windows!”? Im not basing a lot on this, i just thought it was interesting to note. Evolution gets put in schools in the 60s. People abandon their faith in God, and no longer need his rules (or commandments). Crime skyrockets immediately afterwards. Im really not trying to anger anybody here, sorry if thats the effect to some people. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/158 "2012-07-11T15:48:35Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Evolution gets put in schools in the 60s. Again, no, it did not. However the Supreme Court did strike down laws that barred the teaching of evolution in 1968 in _Epperson v. Arkansas_, and I’m guessing that is the basis for your incorrect notion that evolution wasn’t taught in public schools until the '60s. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/159 "2012-07-11T15:49:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Specific facts have already been posted. What do you want to see? > > Evolutionary theory doesn’t contend that “randomness and chance” created our DNA. The theory is that our DNA evolved to its current state over time, and there is more than enough evidence that it did so. > Consider the fact that the state of Tennessee passed a law in response to the teaching of evolution in public schools _in 1925_, resulting in the Scopes trial. > That’s not science, it’s blather that is only meaningful to creationists. Examples of the chain of evolution from one species to another have already been posted. Evolution doesn’t require animals to suddenly give birth to animals of another species. Sorry, no facts were posted. Thats why I asked you to cite a specific one. What did our DNA evolve from? What did animals evolve from? Or plants? All the same thing? And you think this is observable, and scientific? Miller and Urey tried to create life in a lab and failed. Nobody has come closer since. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/160 "2012-07-11T15:50:40Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Sorry, no facts were posted. Thats why I asked you to cite a specific one. What did our DNA evolve from? What did animals evolve from? Or plants? All the same thing? And you think this is observable, and scientific? Miller and Urey tried to create life in a lab and failed. Nobody has come closer since. This has noting to do with evolution. Have you bothered to look up the word in the dictionary yet, like I requested several posts ago? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=9)