# Illuminati vs. Jesus \[a debate about evolution\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889 "2012-07-11T12:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/161 "2012-07-11T15:54:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Again, no, it did not. However the Supreme Court did strike down laws that barred the teaching of evolution in 1968 in _Epperson v. Arkansas_, and I’m guessing that is the basis for your incorrect notion that evolution wasn’t taught in public schools until the '60s. I stressed ‘curriculum’, not first mention. Again, im not basing a lot on this crime rate/evolution thing. I’ll give you this point, because there are several others. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/162 "2012-07-11T15:55:48Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Sorry, no facts were posted. Plenty of facts have been posted. Sorry you don’t like them. > [@](#): > > What did our DNA evolve from? What did animals evolve from? Or plants? All the same thing? If you go back far enough, yes, you find a common ancestor. We do share a significant amount of genetic material with plants. There’s an entire website called [evolutionofdna.com](http://evolutionofdna.com) that gets into it, although I admit it’s too technical for me. > [@](#): > > And you think this is observable, and scientific? Yes. The fossil record backs it up and it’s been observed in viruses, for example. We see viruses mutate every year and alter our vaccines accordingly. We’ve seen evolution in labs. > [@](#): > > Miller and Urey tried to create life in a lab and failed. So what? You’re not asking about the creation of life or abiogenesis, you’re asking about evolution. > [@reef\_shark](#): > > I stressed ‘curriculum’, not first mention. Again, this is an irrelevant distinction. There were holdouts, but it is obvious that evolution was widely taught long before the '60s. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/163 "2012-07-11T15:56:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This has noting to do with evolution. Have you bothered to look up the word in the dictionary yet, like I requested several posts ago? Its called ‘organic evolution’ to the evolutionists. Its not my theory. So you must agree if evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life, then something else must be responsible? ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/164 "2012-07-11T15:56:46Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Sorry, no facts were posted. Thats why I asked you to cite a specific one. What did our DNA evolve from? What did animals evolve from? Or plants? All the same thing? And you think this is observable, and scientific? Miller and Urey tried to create life in a lab and failed. Nobody has come closer since. Facts _have_ been posted throughout this thread. People have posted transitional fossils, vestigial structures, examples of micro-evolution and more. The facts that you’re requesting **are not related to evolution**. Evolution is a theory that explains the changes in living organisms over time. The origins of life **are not part of that**. This is not a matter of opinion, they are different theories and claiming, or even proving, that one is not true would not affect the other. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/165 "2012-07-11T15:58:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Plenty of facts have been posted. Sorry you don’t like them. > If you go back far enough, yes, you find a common ancestor. We do share a significant amount of genetic material with plants. There’s an entire website called [evolutionofdna.com](http://evolutionofdna.com) that gets into it, although I admit it’s too technical for me. > Yes. The fossil record backs it up and it’s been observed in viruses, for example. We see viruses mutate every year and alter our vaccines accordingly. We’ve seen evolution in labs. > So what? You’re not asking about the creation of life or abiogenesis, you’re asking about evolution. What percentage of our DNA is ‘shared with plants’, would you estimate? Anybody who googles ‘intermediary fossils’ will only find a complete lack thereof. Viruses changing into other viruses doesnt prove anything, except that its still a virus. A similar natural resistance occurs in humans, after we take too much penicillin or amoxicillin. The information was already in the gene code, however. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/166 "2012-07-11T15:59:36Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > It is important to note that the OP has yet to posit an alternate explanation for the current level of biodiversity on the planet. Such a hypothesis should be presented, experiments designed, and observations made that support the hypothesis. Worse, **reef shark** has not bothered to deal with the evidence I posted on transitional forms. I guess he would resent that as a shark 🙂 he also was found to come from a transitional form. > **[Cladoselache](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladoselache)** > > Cladoselache ("branch shark") is an extinct genus of shark-like chondrichthyan (cartilaginous fish) from the Late Devonian (Famennian) of North America. It was similar in body shape to modern lamnid sharks (such as mako sharks and the great white shark), but was not closely related to lamnids or to any other modern (selachian) shark. As an early chondrichthyan, it had yet to evolve traits of modern sharks such as accelerated tooth replacement, a loose jaw suspension, enameloid teeth, and possib... ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/167 "2012-07-11T15:59:55Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Its called ‘organic evolution’ to the evolutionists. Its not my theory. So you must agree if evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life, then something else must be responsible? Are you asking us or telling us? BTW, the King James Bible is a collection of books and stories, not a scientific theory. How long a ago would you say life began on this planet? At this point I would even accept you quoting a specific bible verse _if_ said verse directly answered the question. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/168 "2012-07-11T16:02:27Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Its called ‘organic evolution’ to the evolutionists. Its not my theory. So you must agree if evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life, then something else must be responsible? You’re not showing much understanding of evolution. The study of how biological life arose from inorganic matter is [abiogenesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis). ---
**Author:** ![Rubixcube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Rubixcube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubixcube)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/169 "2012-07-11T16:03:05Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Anybody who googles ‘intermediary fossils’ will only find a complete lack thereof. [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils) is an incomplete list of fossils considered transitional. Yes Wikipedia is not a great source, and yes the list is bare bones and incomplete. But there are literally hundreds of transitional fossils. All of this information is easily findable, and claiming that it isn’t is simply not true. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/170 "2012-07-11T16:03:14Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Anybody who googles ‘intermediary fossils’ will only find a complete lack thereof. > . [http://lmgtfy.com/?q=intermediary+fossils](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=intermediary+fossils) 1.9 million results ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/171 "2012-07-11T16:03:15Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Worse, **reef shark** has not bothered to deal with the evidence I posted on transitional forms. > > I guess he would resent that as a shark 🙂 he also was found to come from a transitional form. > > [Cladoselache - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladoselache) Isnt that just a shark? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/172 "2012-07-11T16:04:22Z")
Man, it would really bake the op’s noodle if he ever realized that he himself is merely a transitional form to humans 10,000 years in the future. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/173 "2012-07-11T16:04:35Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > [http://lmgtfy.com/?q=intermediary+fossils](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=intermediary+fossils) > > 1.9 million results With 1.8 million stating theres a lack of missing links. Please cite one of these fossils. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/174 "2012-07-11T16:05:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re not showing much understanding of evolution. The study of how biological life arose from inorganic matter is [abiogenesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis). Is abiogenesis observable? Testable? Able to be repeated? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/175 "2012-07-11T16:05:59Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Isnt that just a shark? Saltationism is not standard evolutionary theory. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/176 "2012-07-11T16:06:54Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > What percentage of our DNA is ‘shared with plants’, would you estimate? I’ve seen reports that we share about 50 percent of our DNA with bananas, if that gives you any idea. > [@](#): > > Anybody who googles ‘intermediary fossils’ will only find a complete lack thereof. Again, this is jargon only used by creationists. There are tons of fossils showing one species evolving into another. I agree there are no T-Rexes with bird heads. > [@](#): > > Viruses changing into other viruses doesnt prove anything, except that its still a virus. Yes it does. You just don’t like the implications. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/177 "2012-07-11T16:07:40Z")
The KJV provides no hypothesis, it posits no questions, it suggests no experiments, it records no observations of those nonextant experiments. It is nothing more than a series of narratives and poetry that present a mythical history of a particular subset of the Semitic people and the subsequent rise of a heretical offshoot of that people’s religion that eventually through secular power became a world-spanning set of somewhat shared beliefs. It isn’t science. It is literature. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/178 "2012-07-11T16:07:58Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > With 1.8 million stating theres a lack of missing links. Please cite one of these fossils. seems about 80/20 split to me (in favor of evolution) from the first 3 pages of results. although google fight reports 72 million results for jesus vs 3.8 million for illuminati so I have to admit you have got us there. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/179 "2012-07-11T16:08:00Z")
> [@Rubixcube](#): > > [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils) is an incomplete list of fossils considered transitional. Yes Wikipedia is not a great source, and yes the list is bare bones and incomplete. But there are literally hundreds of transitional fossils. All of this information is easily findable, and claiming that it isn’t is simply not true. And it quotes in the second paragraph: “Ideally, this list would only recursively include ‘true’ transitionals, fossils representing ancestral species from which later groups evolved, but most if not all, of the fossils shown here represent extinct side branches, more or less closely related to the true ancestor.” Please just show me the one you think is best. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889/180 "2012-07-11T16:10:26Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > The KJV provides no hypothesis, it posits no questions, it suggests no experiments, it records no observations of those nonextant experiments. It is nothing more than a series of narratives and poetry that present a mythical history of a particular subset of the Semitic people and the subsequent rise of a heretical offshoot of that people’s religion that eventually through secular power became a world-spanning set of somewhat shared beliefs. It isn’t science. It is literature. All it needs to say is “animals shall bring forth after their kind”, at least a dozen times. Because thats all I observe. Do you see dogs giving birth to non-dogs? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminati-vs-jesus-a-debate-about-evolution/627889.md?page=10)