# Illuminatiprimus—What's with that weird link in your signature? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2008, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855 "2008-10-21T04:29:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/81 "2008-10-23T07:07:41Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > If the Temple was a cult/scam telling me what to believe and charging me for the privilege I would have been out the door so fast it might as well have been revolving. The Temple’s axiom is “Test everything, Believe nothing”. There is no belief involved here, everything is presented for one to validate. And cognitive dissonance is maintained at a high level as you’re forced to _invest outrageously large_ sums of money for the actual content that they deliver to you. Twenty dollars for twenty pages is a sucker’s play, any way you look at it. Someone who falls for that ,especially spending money on multiple bits of information, will be much more likely to convince themselves that “there’s something to it!” And as I pointed out, as it does follow the basic method for Western (and some Eastern) mysticism, it does ‘work’. The same way some Scientology of Christian Science or Positive Thinking ‘work’. > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > If I am less sceptical of anything I have learnt since joining it is only because I have tested it out for myself and know it to be the case, not because I was told to. Give proof or retract. Which claims are true, and how have you verified them? Instead of, for instance, invoking a ritual to contact the Undead, have you tried to attend a Gnostic Catholic Mass, for example? In other words, have you varied the ritual trappings in order to determine if it was using a ritual, any ritual, to tap into the human psyche? Or do you believe that there is some sort of existential reality behind the claims of ‘magic’? > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > As for the charges of “send us $19.95 for the secrets of the universe”, if you spent money on a training course to build personal confidence/assertiveness, learn how to better manage and make use of your finances, encouraged and advised you have to improve your health and extend your life - would you expect/demand all this to be free? The best things in life aren’t, I’m afraid. False analogy. The goal of self help books, etc… is to make money for their authors. Religions (we are told) are not supposed to be about making money for the leaders. And yet, the Vampire folks seem much more interested in making cash on horribly overpriced pamphlets than spreading their religion. The only two religions I have ever heard of, ever, that charge before they let you in on their beliefs and who don’t want their beliefs spread for free, all while claiming that they have a valid spiritual system which will be a benefit to people? Well… the Vampire folks, and Scientologists. Hardly a flattering comparison, especially since after reading those worthless pages, I can’t possibly imagine how charging 1 dollar a page is anything other than a scam and a rip off. > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Also regarding “recruitment”, how is anyone being recruited? All I have done is what many Temple members do, make the path to the website available for people to explore themselves, the next step is up to the one doing the exploring. So you just do what many Vampire folks do. You provide numerous posts in a community, with added links back to your Vampire group. Once someone clicks on that link, they’re met with purposefully vague and enticing promises which tell you that after you spend money (natch), you’ll understand and be Enlightened. But none of their members are allowed to talk to you, you have to spend the cash. So basically all you’re doing is saying “here’s something cool, awesome, and that’d improve your life. You really should find out about this. And you can, once you pay us.” And that _isn’t_ recruitment in much the same way as a colonoscopy isn’t a bit forward for a first date. > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > a lot of people piled scorn on something based on their own preconceptions and prejudices without any real knowledge. I’ve read Crowley and Wilson and Gurdjieff and Neitzche and LeVay, etc, etc, etc… and now the Vampire Bible. and I say the VB is crap, and rather dressed up pretentious crap, to boot. Can you actually defend it on its merits as a system, or would you only prefer to engage those who say they haven’t read it? > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > but as I’ve said what I’m presenting here isn’t a belief, it’s a method. Yes, but what makes it superior to any other of the Western occult traditions which are, currently, freely available on the web for instance? I’m sure that the basic method works, because it’s the same basic method that everybody else has been using. But what’s a single good reason to pay hard earned money to follow this specific method rather than, say, studying pranayama, kundalini yoga, meditation, Liber Al Vel Legis, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, etc… ? > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > What I have presented can be validated and doesn’t stand on its own authority, I don’t need people to “respect” it because I know it works and that’s all that matters. Give me enough time, and I promise I can create a ritualistic system whereby one communes with the smurfs in order to achieve heightened states of consciousness. Should I charge a dollar a page for that, too? ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/82 "2008-10-23T07:19:57Z")
OK, putting aside my issues with ‘vampirism’ as something to be admired and respected, the best way to show that you are and the Temple are acting in good faith would be to link to the booklet itself (in PDF form, as posted previously in this thread), rather than only to the Temple’s website. And it would be even better if you included that great phrase: > [@](#): > > The Temple’s axiom is “Test everything, Believe nothing”. The bigger and bolder the better. Having said that, this thread and your ‘Ask the Satanist’ one inspired me to go back and listen to the great Mercyful Fate record ‘Don’t Break The Oath’, so something happy’s come out of this 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Racer1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee59a6/32.png) [@Racer1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Racer1)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/83 "2008-10-23T07:57:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Give me enough time, and I promise I can create a ritualistic system whereby one communes with the smurfs in order to achieve heightened states of consciousness. Should I charge a dollar a page for that, too? Sounds like a pretty cool board experiment. I say go for it. _“The solution to any problem, of any size, is born in the simple Smurfist philosophy that it must be born small and managable, yet grow powerful beyond its size. The path to spiritual oneness is blue (and also a bit white)…”_ I’ll donate the webspace. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/84 "2008-10-23T08:22:59Z")
I have to say, I have a bit of a problem with people who define themselves as “predators.” Not much room for the Golden Rule, there. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/85 "2008-10-23T08:24:59Z")
> [@Junior\_Spaceman](#): > > the best way to show that you are and the Temple are acting in good faith would be to link to the booklet itself (in PDF form, as posted previously in this thread) Why would I link to a website that is hosting the Vampire Bible in breach of copyright laws? **FinnAgain** Well whatever, clearly $10 a month/$19.95 for a book is a lot to you if the thought of being charged that equates to being asked to invest outraegously large sums of money (your words). If you think I’m suffering from cognitive dissonance then there really isn’t much to discuss is there? Obviosly I’m brainwashed and don’t know any better. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/86 "2008-10-23T08:53:00Z")
If you can’t link to the Bible, how about telling us what it says? Summarizing a book in your own words is not a breach of copyright laws. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/87 "2008-10-23T08:59:50Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If you can’t link to the Bible, how about telling us what it says? Summarizing a book in your own words is not a breach of copyright laws. Because I can’t discuss it with non-members, as I’ve said upthread. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/88 "2008-10-23T09:02:28Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Why would I link to a website that is hosting the Vampire Bible in breach of copyright laws? Well, much like the now banned Maatorc, you could provide content to back up claims that something you’re telling people to check out… has any value. At all. > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Well whatever, clearly $10 a month/$19.95 for a book is a lot to you if the thought of being charged that equates to being asked to invest outraegously large sums of money (your words). My _actual_ words were that it’s horribly overpriced (at a dollar a page, it certainly is) and that they were charging outrageously large sums of money _for what they were selling._ 20 bucks for a tripple bypass surgery isn’t outrageous. 20 bucks for 20 pages of pablum that could’ve been cribbed from Neitzche and Crowley’s bastard lovechild? Meh. Outrageously overpriced. And yeah, a religion built on ego worship that asks me to pay a fee to be one of them is about as absurd as we can get without talking, burning giraffes. Then again, that’d be surreal rather than merely absurd, so you may skate on a technicality there. And you still refuse to discuss the actual substance of your religion, whose recruitment you see to by spreading it around in your signature. > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > If you think I’m suffering from cognitive dissonance then there really isn’t much to discuss is there? Yes, once that’s pointed out, facts, logic, reason and proof are all irrelevant. It’s sure lucky someone called you on that, otherwise you’d have to explain yourself. Man, dodged a bullet on that one. > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Obviosly I’m brainwashed and don’t know any better. Notice, I neither used the probably GD verboten pejorative “brainwashed”, and even then I said that those who buy into the Vampire folks are much more likely to be suffering from cognitive dissonance, not that it was a definite thing. You can clear all of this up by explaining what the theology means to you. Your dodge about how you’re not the Temple, and can’t speak for them, is absurd. The Pope doesn’t post on the Dope, but any number of Dopers could tell us about Catholicism. Crowley is freakin’ dead, but I’d happily discuss his works with you. And so on, and so on, and so on. If you are silent, perforce the text will speak for itself. And as it’s some puerile pablum, it won’t be its own apologist very well, at all. You could clear all this up by simply explaining what its mystical system is based on, and especially answering my question as to whether or not it was the use of ritual, or the specific “supernatural magic” behind it which you felt was important. Or you could just continue to explain how your silly Vampire book won’t let you talk about anybody who isn’t already a member, and they should shell out a dollar a page to read its silliness (and then more money for further books and a Vampire message board, I guess). And, honestly, if you’re not going to be prepared to discuss the content of your own signature, then tossing that bait out into the waters isn’t exactly polite. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/89 "2008-10-23T09:14:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m sorry, **Gozu** , but I talked to the mods and we’re not going to accept this as the board’s new slogan. Sorry. How about, “Guiding lost lambs to the slaughter since 1973.”? Nah! I see what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/90 "2008-10-23T09:22:05Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Because I can’t discuss it with non-members, as I’ve said upthread. Would you discuss it for $20? ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/91 "2008-10-23T09:26:31Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And, honestly, if you’re not going to be prepared to discuss the content of your own signature, then tossing that bait out into the waters isn’t exactly polite. I didn’t start this thread, and quite frankly am sorry it got started. The link was for people there to find out for themselves, not as a jumping off point for me to start proselytising. I’m not prepared to discuss this further. _Unsubscribes from thread_ ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/92 "2008-10-23T10:25:06Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I didn’t start this thread, and quite frankly am sorry it got started. :rolleyes: “I posted this link in my sig, and kept it up for a long time, and I’m simply baffled that anybody asked me in public about it. Baffled, I tell you!” > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > The link was for people there to find out for themselves, not as a jumping off point for me to start proselytising. Again, rather disingenuous, don’t you think? You link people to a site that claims all sorts of wonderful things and tries to get people to spend 20 bucks to figure out what the fuck it’s talking about… and you claim that you’re not proselytizing? What’re you doing? Directing people to your sacred literature so that they might appreciate it and join your religion? Sure is different than proselyting, right? No way you could’ve expected that someone might ask you about it in public, or via your link as a suggestion that the VB has merit and should be looked into. Nopers. > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I’m not prepared to discuss this further. ~gasp!~ This is unexpected!!! Now, I for one certainly wasn’t convinced when you refused to even explain what the religion meant _to you_, citing absurd dodges about not being able to speak for the author(s) of the VB. I never saw this coming! How could I have predicted that your proselytizing link with vague content designed only to bilk suckers out of 20 bucks… would be backed up by vague suggestions that we are only able to discuss the matter with you if we read your proselytizing link with vague content designed only to bilk suckers out of 20 bucks. I do have to say, though, this thread isn’t even half as fun as maatorc’s recent mess. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/93 "2008-10-23T10:55:46Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > The Temple’s axiom is “Test everything, Believe nothing”. This doesn’t jibe with the notion that everything about the temple has to be kept secret from the public. We can’t test it without paying money. You don’t have to believe something to pay for it, but it seems to ask for the kind of credulousness the temple otherwise scorns. I do disagree that **IP** was recruiting people here. He wanted people to ask about it, but it’s not like he was dumping links to the TV in every post. As far as I know he never used the sig in an actual post either. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/94 "2008-10-23T22:01:38Z")
Sure it’s recruitment, even if it’s not robust. I mean, how is it not designed to serve as a link to pique people’s curiosity so that they’ll join the Vampire group? Even the claim that he ‘wanted people to ask about it’ seems strange. If that was his actual motivation, then he was aiming at getting people curious and questioning, with the deliberate intention of simply telling them “Nyeh nyeh, won’t talk to you.” once they did ask him stuff. ---
**Author:** ![laughingboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@laughingboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laughingboy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/95 "2008-10-24T01:07:46Z")
It’s a shame that **Ip** has left the thread because there’s another point that has gone unmentioned. In the “Ask the Satanist” thread he says > [@](#): > > [N]o Satanist would join an organisation that effectively demanded money off you to progress within it. The COS website specifically warns Satanists from joining them any group (Satanic or no) that requires people to buy their progression or, indeed, wade through layers of outer gibberish on the promise of some inner truth which is exactly what Scientology does. It’s clear from the website that this is also what the Temple does. How does **Ip** reconcile his Vampirism in light of his Satanism? Unless, of course, this is a whoosh in all of its Satanic glory. If so, I say Bravo, **Ip**! ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/96 "2008-10-24T01:11:35Z")
I thought about and I think that you could argue that he is being consistent. You only have to pay for the initial book, there aren’t more texts that are needed later. There is a monthly membership but you can progress as fast or slow as you want and the cost stays the same and doesn’t go up exponentially. Then I thought some more and realized that we’re talking about vampires. Vampires! Why did I just waste my time. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/97 "2008-10-24T01:28:12Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > there aren’t more texts that are needed later. Yes, [there are.](http://www.vampiretemple.com/books.html) ---
**Author:** ![laughingboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@laughingboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laughingboy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/98 "2008-10-24T01:29:00Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I thought about and I think that you could argue that he is being consistent. You only have to pay for the initial book, there aren’t more texts that are needed later. Alas, that’s only if you’re willing to relegate yourself permanently to Vampire wimpitude. From the website: > [@](#): > > When you sufficiently separate and develop your Dayside and Nightside perspectives, a deeper degree of understanding and control becomes available to you. > We refer to this state as the Twilight. > > Our primary text, The Vampire Bible, explains the essence of Vampirism from a highly condensed Nightside perspective. Revelations greatly expands upon this Nightside explanation and adds detailed Dayside and Twilight commentary as well. Expanded understanding and control, yours for a mere $20. How can you lose? The website goes on to say that several of its publications were once available only to active members and that the books it is selling are the ones “available to you **at this time.** ” Sounds like more tempting goodies await those willing to pay the price of admission. > [@](#): > > Then I thought some more and realized that we’re talking about vampires. Vampires! Why did I just waste my time. It’s either this or Mornington Crescent. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/99 "2008-10-24T01:30:54Z")
My problem I think is less the money alone and more that, if the book in question is highly important, then it only makes sense that before you read the book you don’t know the whole truth of the thing. So it’s not just paying for the book, it’s paying for it not based on a true understanding of what’s being got. But that’s ok, because you can get an idea of what’s in it by talking to the people that’ve read it, so that you can get a good idea of whether it is worth it or not. Except that no, you’re not allowed to talk about what’s in the book. Of course, it’s allowed to reference the helpfulness and usefulness from the book vaguely, so that prospective buyers hear only that, further increasing their likelihood of buying. It all seems very neat. I would guess that the meetings or whatever occurs along the lines of official discussion are very jargon heavy, drawing sigificantly from the book, in order that discussers find themselves discouraged to refer to even those conversations when potential new people approach. I’d wager further that members are encouraged to keep an actual written list of events that have occurred on that day. And, at a guess, I suspect that those high up in the organisation strongly discourage proselytisation, impressing on members that only those who show interest should be helped to join. And in general i’m not that impressed with the moral standing of those who’d _sell_ great knowledge and wisdom. Were it me, i’d give it away for free. But that’s just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855/100 "2008-10-24T01:32:41Z")
> [@laughingboy](#): > > How does **Ip** reconcile his Vampirism in light of his Satanism? I think this qualifies for Best Question Ever. Valete, Vox Imperatoris [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illuminatiprimus-whats-with-that-weird-link-in-your-signature/468855.md?page=6)