# I'm a bigot. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581 "2003-09-09T18:35:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/21 "2003-09-10T16:32:42Z")
That’s not the original post. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/22 "2003-09-10T16:35:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Please read the original post that spawned all of this and then get back to me. \*\* I did. In the post that spawned all this, you said: > [@](#): > > Hmm. Not that I can think of; it’s hard for me to like someone I don’t respect, and it’s hard for me to respect someone who’s fundamentally selfish and dishonest. In my opinion it’s impossible to hold a conservative position without first mastering the art of lying to oneself. And it’s impossible to be a public conservative (e.g. a pundit)–which involves lying to others–without being fundamentally disrespectful of your audience. Then, in your first post in Scylla’s “Conservatism” thread, you say, in part (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > I’ve been observing the world around me and drawing my own conclusions from that observation for forty years. The objective truth seems so very obvious to me that **I am simply unable to understand how anyone can observe the same universe and be a conservative; it simply does not add up**. . .Conservatives (so my thinking goes) have more motive to be dishonest: all their rationalizations and justifications are self motivated. The fact that you’re unable to understand how someone might have a political mindset different than yours, and therefore concluding the person does not honestly hold it (is lying to themselves) is, in fact, the essence of intolerance. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/23 "2003-09-10T17:03:30Z")
The original post was in response to this question: > [@](#): > > A lot of people “dislike” wild-assed “conservatives” such as Coulter, Rush, Savage(am i right? dunno who he is). > > Is there anyone who is a conservative whom any left=leaning folk think is a-okay, or respectable? In writing my answer, the grain of sand at the center of this rumbling tumbling snowball, I had only pundits and columnists in mind. As Scylla, in his wonted Chicken Little mode, grabbed it and ran, I expanded upon that original post, in the post you’ve excerpted above, casting a wider net than in my original post, I described only my own impressions and my own observations and my own conclusions, explaining–admitting–that I was unable to understand the reasoning that led conservatives to draw utterly different conclusions from what have been, presumably, the same observations. It remains my conclusion that the only way someone can reach conclusions which seem so patently false to me is either to be ignorant of the facts, or to ignore them. Leaving aside ignorance, since that has not been the focus of this debate, it seems to me that there is an entire spectrum of reasons to ignore what seem to me to obvious facts: all the way from sadistic fascism, to craven self interest, to apathy/fear of altering the status quo, to blind optimism. Though there is, as I said, a spectrum of motivations, I see each step along that spectrum–whether from malignant or benign motivations–as a form of self deception. I have no respect for the people in the original question: conservative talking heads. I have a great deal of respect for people at the other end of the spectrum, such as your grandfather and my friend. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/24 "2003-09-10T17:33:53Z")
In my experience, it is often useful, in observaing these sorts of debates, to back away from the nitty details and examine broader elements. In this case, the question I have to ask myself is; who in this discussion is acting with an open mind, and who isn’t? Who seems prepared to admit they could be wrong, and who doesn’t? Who expresses a willigness to consider other viewpoints and who does not? **lissener** is about as closed-minded a regular poster as we have on the board, at least since **december** got the boot. Few people here, even the really stupidly partisan ones, would be willing to state that “all conservatives/liberals are self-deceptive/liars/scoundrels.” The sheer broadness and inaccuracy of using the liberal/conservative polar scale, as if it is a realistic or even politically serious way of categorizing people, suggests a closed and ignorant mind. I am not personally acquainted with anyone who is actually informed, intelligent, and reasonable who would do that. To be honest, the similarities between lissener and december are substantial. Maybe the soap operas are right, and everyone has an evil twin. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/25 "2003-09-10T17:44:46Z")
THis is regarding a single issue, Rick; just because I haven’t been convinced to admit I’m wrong about this one particular thing doesn’t mean, as you’ve inferred, that I’m generally unable to admit I’m wrong about anything. You’re proposing a litmus test in which the only way you’ve offered me to prove that I am, in a general sense, open minded, admit that I’m “wrong” about a single, pre-selected topic. That’s an unreasonable test, and I decline to take it. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/26 "2003-09-10T19:28:19Z")
**lissener** , I decline to discuss the issue which led to this thread as there is simply no middle ground from which to start. Having made that disclaimer I don’t think the objections in this thread stem from you refusing to admit that you’re wrong about conservatives. As I read it posters of varying political backgrounds are taking issue with you because you won’t admit that theres a _possibility_ that you’re wrong. There is a clear difference between saying “I’m correct” and “I think I’m right yet I admit there is a chance I could be wrong”. Making blanket statements about the motives of conservatives _while not allowing for the possibility that you could be incorrect_ is the key here. It’s not the specific claim that’s causing the responses in this thread. It’s the claim of infallibility on this point. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/27 "2003-09-10T21:38:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*THis is regarding a single issue, Rick; just because I haven’t been convinced to admit I’m wrong about this one particular thing doesn’t mean, as you’ve inferred, that I’m generally unable to admit I’m wrong about anything. \*\* Convincing you that you are wrong is not the litmus test either. You need to show that you are right and rational. In the aforementioned thread you have done an excellent job of avoiding anything like explaining the reasons behind your opinions. The one time you have shows pretty clearly why hiding your reasons was a smart move. You offered 3 reasons as support of your thesis of the evil little conservatives 1. Wealth is finite 2. Conservatives require poverty 3. Conservatism is designed to leave people behind. Then you offered an illustration suggesting a growing wealth disparity between the top 2% and workers as 100% employment was reached. You have been shown in no uncertain terms that these things are wrong. Not just wrong, ridiculously wrong. You don’t know what you are talking about. You are remarkably ignorant of your subject matter. Instead of having the courage to defend or recant, you just sit there and weasel like a little worm. If you’re not a bigot, there ain’t no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/28 "2003-09-10T21:53:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim\_Beaker \* > \*\*There is a clear difference between saying “I’m correct” and “I think I’m right yet I admit there is a chance I could be wrong”. Making blanket statements about the motives of conservatives _while not allowing for the possibility that you could be incorrect_ is the key here. It’s not the specific claim that’s causing the responses in this thread. It’s the claim of infallibility on this point. \*\* this is _exactly_ the point I attempted to make w/one of the die hard **december** appologistas. It is arrogant to attibute motives to people (especially on a scale of ‘conservatives’ vs. ‘liberals’) especially when the groups involved aren’t even necessarily coherant and cohesive on their beliefs, let alone their rationales/motives for having said beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/29 "2003-09-10T23:06:15Z")
**lissener** I assure you I have read your post that started this a number of times. I stand by my statements and would submit that your non-response is craven weaseling at its worst. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/30 "2003-09-11T13:37:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim\_Beaker \* > \*\*. . . As I read it posters of varying political backgrounds are taking issue with you because you won’t admit that theres a _possibility_ that you’re wrong. \*\* This is bullshit; I never even implied that there was any such impossibility. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim\_Beaker \* > \*\* There is a clear difference between saying “I’m correct” and “I think I’m right yet I admit there is a chance I could be wrong”. \*\* I have said much the same thing many, many times during this brouhaha; I have made it clear from the beginning that I was speaking in the realm of opinion, and never claimed to be speaking fact. I have said more than once that my inability to understand a conservative’s reasoning may very well be due to my own shortcomings. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim\_Beaker \* > \*\* Making blanket statements about the motives of conservatives _while not allowing for the possibility that you could be incorrect_ is the key here. It’s not the specific claim that’s causing the responses in this thread. It’s the claim of infallibility on this point. \*\* Bullshit bullshit _bullshit_. So I’m an armchair psychoanalyst; who isn’t? I speculate on another person’s motives for behaving as he/she does. Who doesn’t? I have nothing to apologize for here, simply because despite having read and considered as much political bumpf as the next guy I have drawn a different conclusion, and have shared that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/31 "2003-09-11T13:42:04Z")
Oh, I almost forgot: Scylla, suck my dick. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/32 "2003-09-11T14:55:39Z")
> [@](#): > > This is bullshit; I never even implied that there was any such impossibility. Are you saying then that it’s certainly possible that you could be wrong about the motives of informed, intelligent conservatives? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/33 "2003-09-11T15:27:30Z")
I have never believed, let alone implied, let _alone_ said, otherwise; I have never claimed to be doing anything other than armchair psychoanalysis. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/34 "2003-09-11T16:03:27Z")
Then I simply don’t understand why you are so strident about the motives of conservatives **lissener**. You think you’re right (obviously) but admit you could be wrong. Yet you specifically have stated numerous times that you simply don’t understand conservative reasoning. If you are fully aware of the fact that you don’t understand conservative reasoning how can you be so sure that you understand the motives of conservatives (even if you allow for a minute possibility that you’re wrong)? In essence you’re saying: I know that I don’t understand X (conservatives reasoning) X influences Y (reasoning influences motive) I’m 99% sure I know about Y (conservative motive) I don’t know why I’m posting this. You aren’t going to change your mind and you’ve already admitted that your reasoning is circular. I guess I just want you to understand where I’m coming from. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/35 "2003-09-11T16:11:10Z")
No; I have said that I don’t understand how they can get from A to Z along a route that doesn’t intentionally bypass the poor (e.g.); the only route I am able to imagine that will get them there jumps right over them. Does that need further elucidation? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/36 "2003-09-11T16:14:00Z")
In any case, I haven’t been strident; the stridency has been coming from the Scyllas. I simply shared an opinion, and have yet to have that opinion altered by the subsequent sqeaking. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/37 "2003-09-11T16:49:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Does that need further elucidation? Maybe. When you say that you don’t see how conservatives get from A to Z without bypassing the poor I assume that you’re referring to conservative policies on such topics as the minimum wage, welfare programs, and medical services for the poor. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/38 "2003-09-11T16:51:42Z")
I don’t happen to agree with lissener that conservatives are evil or selfish, as one might expect. But I don’t see why that belief makes him a bigot. He is not merely objecting to people that are not like him. He is offering a direct connection between conservative views and selfishness etc. If you don’t agree with him, disagree. But I don’t see why his judgment is to be considered inherently invalid merely because it happens to reflect negatively on a large group of people. ISTM, that the real basis for the criticism of lissener is the opinion of many that he is so so wrong that he could only have arrived at the conclusion that he holds out of bigotry. Possibly something in that. But not too much. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/39 "2003-09-11T17:30:31Z")
Yes, G\_B; whenever I hear (so far at least) a conservative’s reasoning about how kneecapping the EPA will reduce pollution, or healthcare for profit is better than universal healthcare (they get more [sub]bullshit cough bullshit[/sub] _choices!_[sub]bullshit cough bullshit[/sub]), there’s always a point at which their predicted outcome relies on a leap of faith that _these_ actions (or inactions) will produce _those_ results, and I think of that old cartoon where a mathemetician is chalking up a huge complicated equation on the blackboard, one of the final steps of which is “a miracle occurs here.” And I never thought I’d say this, but **thanks, Izzy** ; my sentiments exactly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581/40 "2003-09-11T17:32:50Z")
**Izzy** , he _hasn’_ offered a direct connection. That’s part of the problem. “I cannot understand how you can believe X without being a selfish evil bastard” shows no connection between believing X and being a selfish evil bastard; it shows instead a limitation of imagination. Maintaining that opinion after it has been explained how you _can_, in fact, believe X without being a selfish evil bastard shows more than a lack of imagination, it shows willful ignorance. And attributing immorality to some large group of people on the basis of willful ignorance pretty much _defines_ bigotry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-bigot/200581.md?page=3)