# I'm a denier denier **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 7, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272 "2015-08-07T20:54:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/21 "2015-08-08T00:21:30Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Why wouldn’t coal mining districts send climate change deniers (if they actually exist) to the US Congress? We have recall, and we know how to us it, either Senator is unemployed if they don’t back the Obama administration. Democracy in action, Pennsylvania is entitled to her say … Eventually politics has to yield to science. > **[Transcript: Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg in Conversation with Bill Moyers –...](https://billmoyers.com/story/transcript-justice-ruth-bader-ginsburg-in-conversation-with-bill-moyers/?post=57534)** > > Bill Moyers is back with a new podcast that cuts through all the noise to get at the heart of what we need to be discussing as a country. Moyers On Democracy will take a look at all the threats … Continue reading > [@](#): > > NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Well, in a free, elected democracy, of course. You vote who you want on your school board. There is no provision in the constitution for the government to establish what’s taught in schools. That’s all relegated to the states. Hence, we speak state to state about what’s in their science textbook versus another. > > And so that’s the country we’ve all sort of bought into, if you will, or born into. I think it’s a self-correcting phenomenon. Nobody wants to die, okay? So we all care about health. But above all else, among the Republicans I know, especially Republicans, nobody wants to die poor, okay? > > So educated Republicans know the value of innovations in science and technology for the thriving of an economy and business and industry. They know this. If you put something that is not science in a science classroom, pass it off as science, then you are undermining an entire enterprise that was responsible for creating the wealth that we have come to take for granted in this country. So we’re already fading economically. If this, if that trend continues, some Republican is going to wake up and say, “Look guys, we got to split these two. We have to. Otherwise, we will doom ourselves to poverty.” And so I see it as a self-correcting, I don’t know when it’ll happen, but they know. > > BILL MOYERS: So what do you think’s at stake? What’s at stake– > > NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: What’s at– > > BILL MOYERS: --for democracy? > > NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Oh no, it’s not, the democracy will still be here. It’s a matter of we’re just voting into office people who don’t understand how to make, how money gets generated. In, you know, since the Industrial Revolution and before, we have known the value of innovation in science and technology and its impact on an economy. > > If that begins to go away, it’s a different country. We’ll still call ourselves America, but we won’t lead the world economically. And that’s a choice we are making as an elective democracy. > [@](#): > > BILL MOYERS: The battle never ends. And the choices we make in democracy often pit religious or partisan beliefs against scientific evidence that contradicts them. And beliefs can be stubborn, hard to give up. They even determine which facts we choose to accept. **Partisans, especially – and who among us is not sometimes a partisan – will twist the facts to fit their preconceived notions. So, when people do stupid things, journalists and politicians included, cherished beliefs are often driving them, sometimes right over the cliff. As people in recovery say, denial is not just the name of a river in Egypt. And that’s what makes it dangerous.** > > Right now, two powerful belief systems have converged to counter facts staring us right in the face. Just as the number of Americans who question the science of evolution has gone up, so too has the number who deny that global warming is happening, and that human activity is causing it. This, at a time when the global scientific community is more certain than ever that you and I, and everyone else, are helping to turn up the heat and seal our fate. **And here’s the scary political reality: on both fronts, evolution and climate change, radical right Republicans have made denial a litmus test. You can see it embodied in this man, Paul Broun, Republican congressman from Georgia, and a physician with strong religious beliefs:** > > PAUL BROUN: I’ve come to understand that all that stuff I was taught about evolution, and embryology, and Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell. And it’s lies to try to keep me and all the folks who are taught that from understanding that they need a savior. You see there are a lot of scientific data that I found out as a scientist that actually show that this is really a young earth. I don’t believe that the earth’s but about 9,000 years old. I believe it was created in six days as we know them. That’s what the Bible says. > > BILL MOYERS: And when he took on the science of global warming, his fellow Republicans in the House of Representatives enthusiastically applauded: > > PAUL BROUN on CSPAN: Now we hear all the time about global warming. Well, actually we’ve had a flat line temperatures globally for the last eight years. Scientists all over this world say that the idea of human-induced global climate change is one of the greatest hoaxes perpetrated out of the scientific community. It is a hoax. > > BILL MOYERS: Not true, simply not true. Up to a point, we might agree that Representative Broun’s personal beliefs are his own business, even when he is telling the extremist John Birch Society that this entire concept of man-made global warming is a conspiracy to, and I’m quoting, “destroy America.” **But remember, this man is chairman of oversight and investigations for the Science, Space, and Technology Committee of the United States House of Representatives, passing judgment on public policy and science. God help us.** ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/22 "2015-08-08T01:09:32Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Eventually politics has to yield to science. If politics yields to science, then it is no longer politics, it becomes science … then only scientists determine social policies. Good or bad, in a democracy we must allow the coal miner’s voice to be heard … and coal miner’s generally don’t want to see a 1.3% annual reduction to their paychecks. Combine economics, science and politics … we get Obama’s recent EPA proposals limiting coal fired power plants. Sure the science says we should stop now, but these coal miner families need a couple generations to adjust. There’s only one man who can see this becomes reality, one man who has the courage to speak freely to the American people, one man who can save the solar system. Donald Trump is perhaps the only person in this Great Nation who has the power to see us through this transition. It is imperative we nominate Donald Trump as the Republican candidate. No person other than Donald Trump can bring to the American People that which she most desperately needs in these times … … a Clinton Presidency ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/23 "2015-08-08T01:27:07Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > If politics yields to science, then it is no longer politics, it becomes science … then only scientists determine social policies. Good or bad, in a democracy we must allow the coal miner’s voice to be heard … and coal miner’s generally don’t want to see a 1.3% annual reduction to their paychecks. Of course, the very ignorant thing is to act like if all the jobs that will be lost by being next to the coast are never added in the diseased math of the deniers. > [@watchwolf49](#): > > Combine economics, science and politics … we get Obama’s recent EPA proposals limiting coal fired power plants. Sure the science says we should stop now, but these coal miner families need a couple generations to adjust. As I do remember the ones I look for support are not just scientists but sociologists, the reality is that deniers of the issue also are deniers of looking for bills that could had helped those families, after all, since there is no problem they would never had any need for help. In reality a lot could had been done to help those families but to do something about this issue the Republicans that continue to deny the issue just will never figure out that the government should had helped. Republicans with their efforts are only allowing executive decisions (rules and regulations) and not cap-n-trade (for example) to allow free enterprise to be more involved in the issue. > [@watchwolf49](#): > > There’s only one man who can see this becomes reality, one man who has the courage to speak freely to the American people, one man who can save the solar system. Donald Trump is perhaps the only person in this Great Nation who has the power to see us through this transition. It is imperative we nominate Donald Trump as the Republican candidate. No person other than Donald Trump can bring to the American People that which she most desperately needs in these times … > > … a Clinton Presidency And it may not happen, I know my history and the Republicans can still win with a lot of denier money, but just like prohibition the Republicans will find that eventually the people will abandon them if they do not yield. [http://www.joesixpack.net/columnArchives/2008/040408.htm](http://www.joesixpack.net/columnArchives/2008/040408.htm) (The image in that article is former presidential candidate Al Smith that was defeated thanks to nasty lies and the people were not amused that the economy tanked and prohibition was still enforced thanks to the Republicans, Al Smith was there however to celebrate the defeat of the deniers of beer. 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/24 "2015-08-08T02:01:22Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Don’t be a sheep. Anyone disagree? Yeah, this is the Pit, not a comedy club. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/25 "2015-08-08T02:12:00Z")
I thought this was about [stockings](http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/denier) (definition 1). ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/26 "2015-08-08T02:25:04Z")
19th century French currency is also good. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/27 "2015-08-08T02:31:13Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > I thought this was about [stockings](http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/denier) (definition 1). Post #11. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/28 "2015-08-08T06:53:23Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > I deny that any sentient being who is capable of speech and wiping their own arse can deny that major, unquestionable historical events happened at all. > > I deny that Holocaust deniers exist - no one with the ability to speak can possibly think you could fake killing 11 million people. I deny OP’s logic, or maybe his premises. By his own premise, his theory would seem to apply to anyone who is [list=a][li] sentient, AND[/li][li] capable of speech, AND[/li][li] wiping their own arse[/list][/li]I question whether the idiots of whom OP speaks are capable of wiping their own arses (or even each other’s, if they tried to make a cooperative effort of it). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/29 "2015-08-08T14:14:55Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I deny OP’s logic, or maybe his premises. By his own premise, his theory would seem to apply to anyone who is > [list=a][li] sentient, AND[/li][li] capable of speech, AND[/li][li] wiping their own arse[/list][/li]I question whether the idiots of whom OP speaks are capable of wiping their own arses (or even each other’s, if they tried to make a cooperative effort of it). They are however capable of following and consuming trash. It is one area of interest of mine as I also investigate pseudoscience and woo woo. What I have observed is that many resident Nativists and Scientific racists of this message board also love to push wedge issues related to environmentalism by abusing the “carbon footprint” item by telling others that immigrants should be denied entry because they will increase their footprint when moving to a wealthy nation like the USA. Never mind that people that investigate the issue found awhile ago that the nativists and scientific racists are just [following memes that racists came with](https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/d6_legacy_files/downloads/publication/Greenwash.pdf) with the idea to divide environmentalists, it failed years ago but that idea comes back like a bad penny. As I noticed before, many climate change deniers seem to not mind that racists or nativists are also part of their “movement”. Some of the very persistent climate denier pests are indeed following both racism and climate change denial or confusing the science on purpose. [What we see here is a demonstration that conspiracy theorists often subscribe to more than one theory, even if they seemingly contradict each other.](http://theweek.com/articles/559101/conspiracy-theorists-truly-believe-anything-says-science)In this case they really think that continuing to deny the science or supporting politicians that are also nativists will prevent what they fear.[In reality it has been pointed that forced immigration thanks to more disasters influenced or caused by climate change will increase the number of “undesirables” (what they think) that will come north.](http://www.desmogblog.com/2014/12/15/immigration-uk-and-terrorism-will-increase-climate-change)[Nice Job Breaking It, “Hero”.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/30 "2015-08-08T14:51:01Z")
I’m a denier denier denier then, which makes you a denier in denial instead. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/31 "2015-08-08T15:03:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I’m a denier denier denier then, which makes you a denier in denial instead. Gee, I’m afraid to ask, but really **kanicbird** , I picture you as mostly having very peculiar religious fundamentalist views. What is the OP talking about you? ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/32 "2015-08-08T15:09:54Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I’m the _dernier_ vernier denier denier. > > I consider that to be a measured response. What’s your stance on slide rules? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/33 "2015-08-08T16:08:04Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > … adding 29 billion tons of C02 to the atmosphere every year will have _some_ effect on the climate? I deny that anyone can be that stupid. They must be all trolling. Well, even in the Pit it’s just not going to fly when you post errors like that. In 2009 the estimates CO2 amounts were 33.4 billion metric tons (Gt) from burning fossil fuels and cement making, and an estimated 3.3 Gt from land use changes. Current estimates of emissions are around 40 Gt a year at present. But, the majority is used by plants or goes into the oceans (it’s not actually known where it goes), so the current amount being added to the atmosphere is around 19 Gt a year. And while I understand you deny that anyone could deny this, I have actually run across a few people posting online (blogs and forums) that actually believe the increase in CO2 levels each year is natural, and that humans have nothing to do with it. They don’t seem to be trolling either. But certainly one can rest easier if they deny that such people can exist. Denial is all about making yourself feel better, or defending some idiotic claptrap you were taught when young, or being able to sleep at night. Or something, I can’t really understand some of it. Like the 911 conspiracy stuff, it just seems impossible that anyone can actually believe it. The few people I have run across in real life all seem to be religious, as well as a bit off in other regards. But one thing I have learned, and it’s backed up by science, and that is when somebody believes something, and their belief is not from a scientific source of knowledge, facts and science and logic and reason will not matter to them. Not even a little bit. “You can’t reason yourself out of a position, if you didn’t reason yourself into it” ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/34 "2015-08-08T16:21:05Z")
[Estimated carbon dioxide from world use of fuels](http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/iedindex3.cfm?tid=90&pid=44&aid=8&cid=ww,&syid=2008&eyid=2012&unit=MMTCD) Note that 2012 shows 32.3 Gt, it’s not surprising that now might be around 34 Gt as year, with another 4 Gt from agriculture and forest clearing. And 2 Gt from cement making. This doesn’t even include [the increase in methane, nitrogenous compounds](http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/global.html), and troposphere ozone pollution. And despite what a lot of people believe, ozone destroying chemicals are still used worldwide, so there’s that as well. Flights across the poles also causes stratospheric ozone destruction, as well as adding water vapor to the stratosphere. All of which effect the earth’s energy balance, so yeah, it’s hard to believe anyone really thinks we are having no effect on the planet. Add in the horrific particulate pollution, draining aquifers, damning up every major river on the planet, and adding huge amounts of phosphorus and nitrogen to the soil (agriculture). irrigating vast desert regions (agriculture), and causing vast amounts of clouds to the marine layer (ship tracks), along with daily persistent contrails, changing the amounts and kinds of solar energy for huge swaths of the planet, it’s hard to believe anyone still denies we have changed the world. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/35 "2015-08-08T16:26:50Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Current estimates of emissions are around 40 Gt a year at present. Well fuck me, it seems just [fossil fuels alone might be 40 Gt already](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2764323/China-US-India-push-world-carbon-emissions-up.html). It’s a damn good thing Hansen wasn’t right or we would all be fucking dead by now. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/36 "2015-08-08T16:50:30Z")
Ah yes, **FXMastermind** demonstrates in 3 posts the miasma of contradictions that he spews every day. The very basic one is to continue to think that the very scientists that showed us about “the increase in CO2 levels each year is [not] natural, and that humans have something to do with it.” to be wrong anyhow. Indeed, the scientists for him continue to be “nobodies” climategate was important, Judah Cohen and the ones working for him are not using the “abortion” that is the Hockey Stick from Mann and others, [and mercury fillings will destroy us all](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=717960&page=3). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/37 "2015-08-08T16:56:00Z")
40 Gt is about 8 ppmm, or roughly 5 ppmv. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/38 "2015-08-08T17:11:48Z")
Since July 2013 till July 2015, the global ppm went up by 4.1 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/39 "2015-08-08T17:19:49Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Well fuck me, it seems just [fossil fuels alone might be 40 Gt already](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2764323/China-US-India-push-world-carbon-emissions-up.html). > > It’s a damn good thing Hansen wasn’t right or we would all be fucking dead by now. Last time I checked the American Meteorological Society (AMS) has not withdrawn the Carl-Gustaf Rossby Research Medal, the highest honor bestowed by them to Hansen. [http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2009/hansen\_ams.html](http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2009/hansen_ams.html) And the ADA still has not changed what they reported about dental fillings: [http://www.ada.org/en/about-the-ada/ada-positions-policies-and-statements/statement-on-dental-amalgam](http://www.ada.org/en/about-the-ada/ada-positions-policies-and-statements/statement-on-dental-amalgam) ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272/40 "2015-08-08T17:54:06Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Since July 2013 till July 2015, the global ppm went up by 4.1 Uh oh … we’re denying the existence of 32 Gt CO[sub]2[/sub] … I’m afraid we’ll have to deny the denial of the denialists without denying denialism in the denialology context … but can we honestly deny the denial of denying? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-denier-denier/727272.md?page=3)