# I'm a liberal opposed to illegal immigration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202 "2017-03-02T14:35:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/41 "2017-03-02T21:01:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Any “law” which makes it illegal for a person who is not a convicted felon to move is a bad law and shouldn’t be followed. Seriously, if there was a law that said “People from Tyson’s Corner, VA are not allowed to move to North Carolina”, and there was an employer there who offered you a lucrative job, you wouldn’t consider saying “Screw that, North Carolina, here I come!”? > > And the borders arguments are ignorant. We had zero laws against immigration in the 19th century, and the US still had borders, laws, and military defense. Illinois has borders, but people from the rest of the country can still pass through them or settle in Illinois without issue. People equating migration with “invasion” are being disingenuous at best. 1. Why is it a bad law? What if the movement of people is, in many cases, bad for society? 2. US states aren’t sovereign countries and don’t have distinct national identities to preserve. That having been said, I do think the US is too big and we would be better off if we were multiple smaller countries. 3. Plenty of countries have in fact had controls on internal migration. China still has them today, at least in theory. 4. Illinois has borders in the sense of geographic lines on a map, and in the sense of some laws being different in Illinois than its neighbors, but the borders of Illinois (or any US state) don’t really _mean_ all that much, since as you point out they can’t exclude people from entering. ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/42 "2017-03-02T21:05:15Z")
> **[Melania Trump Broke U.S. Immigration Law To Work as a Model In 1996](https://www.politicususa.com/2016/11/05/melania-trump-broke-u-s-immigration-law-work-model-1996.html)** > > According to documents obtained by the Associated Press, Melania was paid $20,056 for 10 modeling jobs that occurred in the seven weeks before she got a work visa. Melania Trump is said to had broken the immigration law ! ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/43 "2017-03-02T21:11:15Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > And why should societies have the same rights as individual humans? They don’t have “the same” rights as individual humans, they have _many more_ rights than individual humans, most importantly the right to use force. And that’s because societies are, ultimately, more important than individuals, since individual people can only flourish _within_ the context of a society. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/44 "2017-03-02T21:20:15Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > 1. Why is it a bad law? What if the movement of people is, in many cases, bad for society? Whether something is “good” or “bad” for society is almost always subjective. Subjective opinions should form no basis for restricting individual liberty (which is of course, my own subjective opinion). > [@](#): > > 1. US states aren’t sovereign countries and don’t have distinct national identities to preserve. That having been said, I do think the US is too big and we would be better off if we were multiple smaller countries. They gave up that sovereignty because of the recognition that they were better off giving it up in exchange for belonging to a union. A worldwide union with free migration could work just as well. We may have a common culture _now_, but that was not always the case. Do you think Massachusetts and Arizona shared a common culture in 1900? > [@](#): > > 1. Plenty of countries have in fact had controls on internal migration. China still has them today, at least in theory. Totalitarian regimes are always about control. Freedom is more important than control, because life is too short to be bound by any one society’s mores if one does not wish to be. > [@](#): > > 1. Illinois has borders in the sense of geographic lines on a map, and in the sense of some laws being different in Illinois than its neighbors, but the borders of Illinois (or any US state) don’t really _mean_ all that much, since as you point out they can’t exclude people from entering. Being able to define the law within those borders should be sufficient, so long as the law applies equally to all, regardless of national (or state) origin. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/45 "2017-03-02T21:22:59Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Look, the bottom line is that we have a number of much less prosperous nations to our south, including a very long border with Mexico; > > USA GDP Per Capita: $53,000 > Mexico GDP Per Capita: $10,300 > > Not to mention the problems with drug cartels. > > Anytime you have that kind of disparity, you’re going to be faced with mass migration from the poorer nation to the richer nation. It Just Is. > > Not a goddamned thing is going to slow that down until that disparity narrows. And yes, one of the best ways for that to happen is US investment in Mexico and creating jobs there. Here I entirely agree with you, we should be doing all we can to encourage economic development in Mexico through investment, foreign aid, and yes, buying Mexican goods. To be clear, why I’m a strong believer in the absolute right of states to control migration in principle (both to keep people from entering, and if necessary to keep them from leaving), whether that right should be exercised in any particular case is a less clear question. I don’t think the answer is always yes, and in particular I don’t, at the moment, have a strong feeling about how much immigration from Mexico or Central America the United States should take. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/46 "2017-03-02T21:24:37Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > Freedom is more important than control, because life is too short to be bound by any one society’s mores if one does not wish to be…Being able to define the law within those borders should be sufficient, so long as the law applies equally to all, regardless of national (or state) origin. Do you have the slightest bit of evidence for either of these interesting claims? ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/47 "2017-03-02T21:34:19Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > They don’t have “the same” rights as individual humans, they have _many more_ rights than individual humans, most importantly the right to use force. And that’s because societies are, ultimately, more important than individuals, since individual people can only flourish _within_ the context of a society. And yet, for all its claimed importance, it doesn’t even exist without those individuals. Why should society have the right to use force on someone who has not proven himself a detriment to that society’s peace? Society is incapable of being harmed unless at least one of its members is harmed. In much the same way that the the collective entity that is _me_ does not hurt unless some specific part of me hurts. Society is of zero import without its members, so to say it is more important than its members just seems like some sort of paradox to me. And again, society is nothing more than an idea. It does not feel, it does not love, nor does it suffer, so why should I esteem it more than I would the individuals that make it up—individuals who _do_ feel, _do_ love, and _do_ suffer? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/48 "2017-03-02T21:38:14Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > How can this be a serious question? The answer is YES. We’re still discussing legal immigration, right? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/49 "2017-03-02T21:43:43Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > (emphasis added) > > Even convicts should have the right to move where they will, providing their sentences have been satisfied in full, in my opinion. Yes. My point is that if you aren’t currently serving a sentence for a crime, you should be able to move wherever you want at will. Assuming you can afford the house or rent payment. I’m not demanding landlords and homeowners start housing immigrants involuntarily, which is what a lot of people seem to think immigration _is_, judging by facebook. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > 1. Why is it a bad law? What if the movement of people is, in many cases, bad for society? It is a bad law for the reasons I already state, notably that moving is a human right. Also, free migration is economically advantageous to society for the same reasons free trade is. Repealing slavery was bad for the society of the American South, according to the people making the rules. Doesn’t make emancipation wrong. Doesn’t mean those rules were right. Society survived, and the word is a better place now. “Bad for society” is what autocrats and tyrants say when they’ve given up trying to oppose something on its merit. What they really mean is “I don’t like it”. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > 1. US states aren’t sovereign countries and don’t have distinct national identities to preserve. That having been said, I do think the US is too big and we would be better off if we were multiple smaller countries. > > 2. Plenty of countries have in fact had controls on internal migration. China still has them today, at least in theory. So you think it should be illegal for people to freely move between US States? :eek: At least you’re consistent. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > 1. Illinois has borders in the sense of geographic lines on a map, and in the sense of some laws being different in Illinois than its neighbors, but the borders of Illinois (or any US state) don’t really _mean_ all that much, since as you point out they can’t exclude people from entering. So the US didn’t have any borders in the 19th century? Or are you just trying to redefine the phrase “national border” to align with your 21st century political stance against human migration? ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/50 "2017-03-02T21:47:21Z")
I first heard about the idea of “liberals” versus “conservatives” when I was a teenager, way back just after we killed off the last brontosauruses. From the beginning, I saw that the terms were confused and mucked up by more people than had them right. On top of that, people who THINK they are one or the other, are often completely wrong, if you look at what they do and don’t actually believe. All that means that attributing a particular viewpoint to someone being “liberal” is tricky, at best. The main phenomenon I’ve seen most often, is eager beavers off all sorts, jumping to attack or defend all sorts of things, just because they think they “should,” based not on thinking things through (or on being liberal or conservative), but rather based on their habitual allies or enemies. I know that I have seen conservatives and liberals alike (actual ones), charge in and make declarations that any CALM AND REASONABLE person would instantly recognize were the opposite of that person’s claimed principles. In the case of the fight over illegal immigrants, over the years, I’ve seen both “liberals” and “conservatives” take sides opposite to what this thread starter seems to expect, for a variety of reasons. I’ve seen conservatives oppose enabling the INS to go after illegals, not because they were anti-law-and-order, but because they thought that businesses would be too disrupted by the actions. I’ve seen "liberals’ oppose the same thing, not because they opposed law-and-order, but because they worried that the way the proposed details of how the laws were to be enforced, would result in lots of innocent people being stopped and interrogated, just for “looking foreign.” I’ve also seen plenty of people in the news, who were chosen _by the reporters_ to speak for “liberals” or “conservatives,” say silly or outrageous things. Sometimes, it’s obvious to me at least, that the particular person was suffering from a sort of hyper-something phenomenon, taking an extreme stance in public, more because they were angry at the people who they saw as opponents, than because they really cared that much about the exact concern of the moment. That’s where I think we get most of the stuff that the OP here refers to. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/51 "2017-03-02T21:54:56Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > We’re still discussing legal immigration, right? Discussing anything. There is not a nation on earth (current or historical) that doesn’t trample on human rights, daily. The US is better than some, but you see we’re still talking about keeping it illegal to move here. We’re still murdering black children on an almost daily basis. We’re still filling our prisons with political prisoners who simply had the wrong plant residue on their persons. I could go on literally forever. And we’re still one of the good ones. Most countries are far worse than that. But yes, extorting the poor of the third world by telling them “want to move? Give us ten thousand dollars, ten years of your life, and more lawyer fees and plane trips than you can count, or else become a felon who can’t vote or work the second you show up” IS a human rights abuse, if you’re keeping score at home. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/52 "2017-03-02T22:03:43Z")
Nobody is actually _for_ illegal immigration. the question is what to do about it. I’ve always advocated a three-prong approach. First, increased border security, to keep the problem from getting worse. Second, effective action against employers who, as a matter of course, hire illegal aliens. Third, steps to identify, categorize, and deal with the folks that are here in a fashion appropriate to their circumstances. I think that most liberals and most conservatives would be in accord with this general concept but it breaks down when deciding which to prioritize and how to deal with the folks that are here. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/53 "2017-03-02T22:04:36Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > “Bad for society” is what autocrats and tyrants say when they’ve given up trying to oppose something on its merit. What they really mean is “I don’t like it”. That’s funny, because I’d say exactly the same thing about the phrase “human rights”. (I.e. that I generally stop listening to the argument when people invoke ‘human rights’, because it usually indicates that they are unable to actually, you know, make an argument on its merits. Human rights are mostly a legal fiction anyway). If you want me to be more specific: I want a world in which there are lots of distinct societies which maintain distinct ethnic, genetic, cultural, religious, political, and ideological identities. Maintaining their distinctness means the ability to exclude anyone who doesn’t conform to the kind of society they want to maintain. The existence of cohesive societies- which, to me, is a big part of what makes life worthwhile- depends on the ability of such societies to exclude. At the more prosaic level, I also think social trust and solidarity are good things, and having a diverse society tends to put those things in danger and make people more individualistic. That being said, I think the negative aspects of mass immigration need to be balanced against the positive aspects (of which there are some, most importantly, in this case, for the Mexicans and Central Americans who would like a better standard of living). I think most societies are probably best off if they stay mostly ethnically homogeneous, but I don’t think _all_ societies need to do so, and in particular I think there’s a lot to be said for the United States serving a role as a worldwide haven for immigrants, and as a destination for people who, for whatever reason, no longer want to live in ther home country. I am _very_ resistant though, to trying to export the US model to other countries. As for whether the US should have internal migration controls on people moving between states, I don’t really have a position on that. I would just note that plenty of other societies have had such restrictions and generally functioned OK with them. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/54 "2017-03-02T22:06:25Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Nobody is actually _for_ illegal immigration. the question is what to do about it. I’ve always advocated a three-prong approach. First, increased border security, to keep the problem from getting worse. Second, effective action against employers who, as a matter of course, hire illegal aliens. Third, steps to identify, categorize, and deal with the folks that are here in a fashion appropriate to their circumstances. I think that most liberals and most conservatives would be in accord with this general concept but it breaks down when deciding which to prioritize and how to deal with the folks that are here. I think cracking down on employers of illegal immigrants, plus an amnesty + path to citizenship for people who are already here, would be a good idea. (And incidentally, a compromise which public opinion polls suggest would have more than 50% approval). ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/55 "2017-03-02T22:16:54Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > That’s funny, because I’d say exactly the same thing about the phrase “human rights”. (I.e. that I generally stop listening to the argument when people invoke ‘human rights’, because it usually indicates that they are unable to actually, you know, make an argument on its merits. Human rights are mostly a legal fiction anyway). If you don’t think humans have rights, I don’t know what to tell you. We’re not going to bridge that gap. I also think your vision of every nation as a bland tundra of cultural sameness leaves a lot to be desired. Again, if you think diversity is a bad thing, I don’t think there will be any meeting of minds here. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/56 "2017-03-02T22:24:05Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Discussing anything. There is not a nation on earth (current or historical) that doesn’t trample on human rights, daily. The US is better than some, but you see we’re still talking about keeping it illegal to move here. . That UN resolution just said you need to have the right to\* leave _your country. In the USA we have that, unlike many other nations. That UN resolution_ said nothing at all whatsoever\* about having the right to enter and reside in any nation of your choosing. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/57 "2017-03-02T22:24:55Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > Borders are definitely an infringement of the right to leave, so long as any state has the authority to deny entry. That’s a silly argument. There are (and were) places that don’t let their citizens leave, like North Korea, Cuba, and the former Soviet bloc. It doesn’t follow that every other country must accept them, if they do manage to leave. Tell me, if the Smiths kick out their drunken lout of a brother-in-law, are you required to board him? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/58 "2017-03-02T22:40:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That UN resolution just said you need to have the right to\* leave _your country. In the USA we have that, unlike many other nations. That UN resolution_ said nothing at all whatsoever\* about having the right to enter and reside in any nation of your choosing. What does the UN have to do with anything? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/59 "2017-03-02T22:46:50Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > What does the UN have to do with anything? 😕 Post 30: \* CoastalMaineiac Article 13 of the United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights: Quote: (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country. Borders are definitely an infringement of the right to leave, so long as any state has the authority to deny entry.\* ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202/60 "2017-03-02T23:20:23Z")
Okay. I mean, the UN can make their own standard, and that’s useful to point to as support in an argument sometimes, but the UN isn’t what determines whether something is a human right or not. And specifically, what kind of right is it that can easily be infringed by silly loopholes like that? “Oh, we said you had a right to _leave_, not to actually move anywhere”. That’s like “We said you had a right to _vote_, not that we are obligated to count it or anything”. You either have a right to move or you don’t. “Right to leave” is pointless by itself. Like the “right to vote by writing your preference on a piece of paper and then throwing it in the trash”, it’s not actually a right at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-liberal-opposed-to-illegal-immigration/781202.md?page=4)