# I'm a Muslim American; I'm angry at Israel, **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553 "2006-07-29T16:40:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/41 "2006-08-04T09:34:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > … > However, you would have to be as blind, deaf and dumb as the three monkeys of legend to deny that there is a bit of a problem here and elsewhere with Islamic extremism. Certainly, there are extremists of all religions and cultures - yet acceptance of extremism as “normal” or even “laudable” varies from population to population. > > It seems to me that it is a fully valid position, and not one which is _of necessity_ fueled by bigotry and/or logical error, to wonder if acceptance of extremism is higher in the Muslim population than in others. > … > Please convince me that this isn’t an issue. I’d like to believe that it isn’t, but I’m having a hard time dismissing the objective seeming evidence that points the other way. Sure, it’s easy. It is a very special kind of blindness you need, having to be is blind to your own faults and possess a limitless capacity for self forgiveness. Sound like a big ask? Look around. Think again. It’s everywhere. To reiterate, terrorism is merely what people too poor for an army do. For instance consider: Which is the greater crime: - indiscriminate civilian deaths from homemade explosives; or - waging aggessive war. ---
**Author:** ![MerryMagdalen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@MerryMagdalen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MerryMagdalen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/42 "2006-08-04T10:29:29Z")
I haven’t read the whole thread, but I’d like to mention that there’s a very good article about the shooter in our local alternative rag this week. They interviewed his roommate. [www.thestranger.com](http://www.thestranger.com) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/43 "2006-08-04T11:02:50Z")
I see **js\_africanus** has done what I wanted to do, but more eloquently. I just want to add, re **buttonjockey** ’s list: it’s disingenuous to include London, Madrid and Beirut in your list of the threat to “us”, while comparing Islamists _only_ with the short list of non-Muslim terrorists who have attacked targets on US soil. If you choose to include those cities (and non-US hijackings, etc.), then you’ll need to add the names of all the non-Muslim terrorists who have acted in them - and then that list will run into the hundreds or thousands and diminish your point. By all means use the list to bolster your point, which is not without merit, but miss out non-US incidents when you’re attempting to show the exclusive threat from Islamism. (Oh, and the bomb Marine Barracks in Beirut, while reprehensible, doesn’t really fall under “terrorism” by most people’s definition, since it was a military target.) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/44 "2006-08-04T13:56:50Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Sure, it’s easy. It is a very special kind of blindness you need, having to be is blind to your own faults and possess a limitless capacity for self forgiveness. Sound like a big ask? Look around. Think again. It’s everywhere. > > To reiterate, terrorism is merely what people too poor for an army do. For instance consider: Which is the greater crime: > > - indiscriminate civilian deaths from homemade explosives; or > - waging aggessive war. Okay, let me have it. What “faults” do I possess that I am blind to? What “self foregiveness” have I given? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/45 "2006-08-04T14:08:44Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > The fact is, this guy Haq is being pitted for an action that’s the product of mental illness, and yet half the posters in this thread saw fit to use the occasion to go on their usual rants against Islam. The fact is that while this fellow’s illness and extremist actions are all his own, to my mind at least the true subject of the discussion ought to be “is there a real problem, or danger, of Islamic extremism leading to actual danger to the public here in North America?” With a side order of this debate: “is even raising this subject an example of bigotry or the operation of some sort of logical fallacy, such as selective screening of facts?” A few years ago I would have thought the answer to the first question was “no” and the answer to the second question was “probably”. After 9/11, I feared that the real danger to the public was the possibility of a backlash of bigotry against Muslims, both here and in the US. Now, I’ve changed my mind. I believe this change of mind is based on facts and not bigotry. You be the judge. It seems to me that increasingly “extremist positions” among the Muslim community here in my city have become, if not the norm, at least more accepted; that liberal Muslims are being hounded out of their own communities (see link provided above); that terrorist cells have started to form (one of which was famously busted just a little while ago, and while they haven’t been tried yet, the evidence against them seems pretty solid). I can dismiss this guy as a lone nutcase. It is however the overall _pattern_ or _trend_, which may or may not have influenced this nut, which is disturbing. Particularly in my city as my city, Toronto, rightly prides itself on its multiculturalism. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/46 "2006-08-04T14:21:04Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > . . . [therefore I’m going to kill some Jews in Seattle](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060729/ts_nm/crime_shooting_dc_6). > > OK, so you’re pissed at Israel. And, you know something, even as a diehard Isarael supporter, I’m also none too pleased with Israel’s response to the latest unprovoked attack it’s endured. But, WTF, how does murdering a lady from Seattle figure into this? Could it be that, at least in your case, Israel = Jew? > > Fucker. That really pisses me off too. The Israeli govenment is continually equating Judaism with Israel. And this pathetic argument is often used on this board … if you are against Israel you must be anti-semetic. Israel insisting it is acting for jewish people leads to morons like this bozo in Seattle think that they are fighting Israel in some way by hurting/killing innocent people. Just because Israel is bad, this does not mean jews are bad. Zionism != Judaism. [Here is a great article](http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/israel-does-not-act-or-speak-for-every-jew/2006/08/03/1154198265594.html) on this problem. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/47 "2006-08-04T14:56:04Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > That really pisses me off too. The Israeli govenment is continually equating Judaism with Israel. And this pathetic argument is often used on this board … if you are against Israel you must be anti-semetic. Israel insisting it is acting for jewish people leads to morons like this bozo in Seattle think that they are fighting Israel in some way by hurting/killing innocent people. > > Just because Israel is bad, this does not mean jews are bad. Zionism != Judaism. > > [Here is a great article](http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/israel-does-not-act-or-speak-for-every-jew/2006/08/03/1154198265594.html) on this problem. I’m willing to accept that the Muslim community should _not_ be held in any way morally responsible for this lunatic’s lunacy; you seem to be edging close to arguing that _Israel_ should be. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/48 "2006-08-04T15:49:48Z")
When I wrote the OP, many of the “facts of the case” were not yet in the open. Now, in retrospect, it’s clear that the guy is a loon. Notwithstanding that, I still feel that it’s remarkable that he chose to act out his lunacy in a way that targeted Jews. I think it is distinctly possible that happened as a consequence of the hateful environment he was exposed to - an environment all too commonly fostered by various extremist Islamic elements in North America and abroad. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/49 "2006-08-04T17:31:09Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > This indicates mostly that you cannot name a few exceptions. Like I say, any armies you care to discuss? Norway. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2006, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/50 "2006-08-05T02:02:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m willing to accept that the Muslim community should _not_ be held in any way morally responsible for this lunatic’s lunacy; you seem to be edging close to arguing that _Israel_ should be. 😕 Thats right. Below is just one example of how Israel is equating its actions with Jewish morality. Obviously this does not put Jewish morality in good light. Many people around the world hear this connection, which results in disturbing actions from mentaly unstable Seatilites to drunk American actors. [Jerusalem Post 31July2006](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292043234&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) > [@](#): > > Speaking before northern residents in Karmiel, Olmert said that Israel was committed to the most basic laws of morality that have been part of the Jewish heritage for millennia, adding that no other countries could teach Israel morality. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/51 "2006-08-05T04:31:02Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > When I wrote the OP, many of the “facts of the case” were not yet in the open. > > Now, in retrospect, it’s clear that the guy is a loon. > > Notwithstanding that, I still feel that it’s remarkable that he chose to act out his lunacy in a way that targeted Jews. I think it is distinctly possible that happened as a consequence of the hateful environment he was exposed to - an environment all too commonly fostered by various extremist Islamic elements in North America and abroad. Well then again I and other posters would have to ask you to point to available evidence and not your assumptions about what has caused his behavior. Apparently it wasn’t his parents: > **[Parents of Man Charged in Seattle Shooting Issue Appeal and Apology to Jews...](https://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/01/us/01seattle.html)** > > The parents of a Muslim man accused of killing a woman at a Jewish organization “don’t want this to be seen as anything but the act of an ill person,” a lawyer said. "The parents of a Muslim man accused of shooting to death a woman and injuring five other people at a Jewish nonprofit organization last week wrote letters to Jewish groups on Monday saying “they don’t want this to be seen as anything but the act of an ill person,” a lawyer for the family said. “It’s basically telling the people that they’re very sorry for the tragedy that happened, that they’re praying for them,” said the lawyer, Larry C. Stephenson. “They don’t want this to be seen as creating any hatred between Jewish and Muslim people. The Haqs are very religious people.”" Frankly, I might as well start asking you to justify this, “seeming rise in violence among white middle-aged nut-jobs against a random sampling of society,” in relation to the serial killers just arrested Phoenix, Arizona. Interesting, by the way, that as of this week, after months of that killing spree that the cops were still looking for a, “light-skinned African American.” [http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0801description0801.html](http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0801description0801.html) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/52 "2006-08-05T16:38:54Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > This indicates mostly that you cannot name a few exceptions. Like I say, any armies you care to discuss? No, it indicates that I was under the impression that these posts were on the SDMB GD forum and thus if someone makes an assertion, it’s on them to back it up. YMMV. (BTW, do you want a reminder of that term also?) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/53 "2006-08-05T16:40:25Z")
Ah, I see my mistake. The posts are in the BBQ forum. At any rate, you made an assertion, you should back it up. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553/54 "2006-08-06T15:20:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The fact is that while this fellow’s illness and extremist actions are all his own, to my mind at least the true subject of the discussion ought to be “is there a real problem, or danger, of Islamic extremism leading to actual danger to the public here in North America?” > > With a side order of this debate: “is even raising this subject an example of bigotry or the operation of some sort of logical fallacy, such as selective screening of facts?” > > A few years ago I would have thought the answer to the first question was “no” and the answer to the second question was “probably”. After 9/11, I feared that the real danger to the public was the possibility of a backlash of bigotry against Muslims, both here and in the US. > > Now, I’ve changed my mind. I believe this change of mind is based on facts and not bigotry. You be the judge. > > It seems to me that increasingly “extremist positions” among the Muslim community here in my city have become, if not the norm, at least more accepted; that liberal Muslims are being hounded out of their own communities (see link provided above); that terrorist cells have started to form (one of which was famously busted just a little while ago, and while they haven’t been tried yet, the evidence against them seems pretty solid). > > I can dismiss this guy as a lone nutcase. It is however the overall _pattern_ or _trend_, which may or may not have influenced this nut, which is disturbing. Particularly in my city as my city, Toronto, rightly prides itself on its multiculturalism. If you exchange Toronto with Amsterdam, _I_ could have written this. What bothers me most is that people dismiss you as a bigot, when you’re merely questioning a religion/doctrine. This is an interesting read. By a Kurd from Turkey: [http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=12957](http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=12957) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-a-muslim-american-im-angry-at-israel/366553.md?page=2)