# I'm all for equal employment, but... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2002, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980 "2002-08-08T16:21:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/21 "2002-08-08T20:34:57Z")
Abe Babe, somehow I’m just not seeing a strong comparison between being tempermentally fit for a particular job and saying someone shouldn’t work in _any_ position that requires communication with customers because that person’s ability to communicate isn’t perfect. Shoot, the guy who refilled my iced tea at lunch today speaks only very basic English, but I don’t expect him to be relegated to the kitchen just because we can’t discuss Shakespeare. As you’ll recall, the OP’s unqualified statement was: > [@](#): > > I think she should be working in a position that does not require her to communicate with customers. And if anyone else can come up with a better source on the employment numbers, I’m still interested. Like ElJeffe said, that doesn’t quite cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/22 "2002-08-08T20:41:26Z")
horhay: > [@](#): > > I am happy that Subway hired her, but I think she should be working in a position that does not require her to communicate with customers. First of all, I do not even think it is likely that Subway hired her because they were afraid of the ADA. They probably just hired her so she could do the job. And honestly, although it may be slightly less convenient for the customer, there is no reason why she can not do the job. Yes, you may have to point to what you want on your sandwich. As wring said, even a simple chart would solve the problem. There is no reason someone who is deaf cannot work in a position that requires her to communicate with customers. ElJeffe: > [@](#): > > I couldn’t find precise statistics regarding the pre- and post-ADA unemployment rates, but I found several links to studies commenting on the decline in the employment rate among those with disabilities. Your link mostly talks about how the ADA has helped make more things available to the disabled. It doesn’t say anything bad about the ADA, except possibly that it is not well understood. I find it very hard to believe that the ADA has caused a decline in employment, and this link does nothing to convince me. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/23 "2002-08-08T20:44:15Z")
According to the US Census Bureau, in a [report](http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/disable/emperndis.pdf) presented in July, 2000: > [@](#): > > The major conclusion of this paper regarding the measurement over time of the employment status of individuals with disabilities is that there is currently no satisfactory vehicle for producing such a measure. In fact, a Presidential Order dated March 13,1998, established a National Task Force on Employment of Adults with Disabilities, and instructed the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census Bureau, in cooperation with other selected Federal agencies, to design and implement a statistically reliable and accurate method to measure the employment rate of adults with disabilities. > (Look on pages 17-18.) However, in the interest of clarity, [here are the tables](http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/disable/emperndistbl.pdf) cited in the report. The results are not conclusive, but they certainly don’t indicate a _reduction_ in employment of the disabled since 1992. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/24 "2002-08-08T20:52:01Z")
Could you possibly write down what you want on your sandwich before going there? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/25 "2002-08-08T20:53:42Z")
**horhay** - points being: 1. Even persons w/ no hearing loss can and do get orders wrong. 2. Her disability _per se_ wasn’t the problem, the problem was that the appropriate accomodation wasn’t being utilized. 3. with the proper accomodation some one w/her disability **could** in fact perform that job, so Subway wasn’t wrong to have had ‘that person in that job’. ---
**Author:** ![horhay\_achoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/26 "2002-08-08T20:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Abe Babe, somehow I’m just not seeing a strong comparison between being tempermentally fit for a particular job and saying someone shouldn’t work in _any_ position that requires communication with customers because that person’s ability to communicate isn’t perfect. Shoot, the guy who refilled my iced tea at lunch today speaks only very basic English, but I don’t expect him to be relegated to the kitchen just because we can’t discuss Shakespeare. As you’ll recall, the OP’s unqualified statement was: > > And if anyone else can come up with a better source on the employment numbers, I’m still interested. Like ElJeffe said, that doesn’t quite cut it. \*\* Yes, but his job was to fill your iced tea and he did it. This woman’s job is to make the sandwich that you order and she does not do it all of the time. My friend was in the store a couple of weeks ago when she was working. He ordered a 12 inch club, and got a 6 inch turkey. Another time I went in and ordered. I told her I wanted mayo, but I guess she didn’t know that I said it. When she asked “mayo?” I replied yes, but I guess she was saying mustard and I just couldn’t understand her, because I got mustard on my sandwich. I don’t see what’s so wrong with recognizing the fact that people have disabilities. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/27 "2002-08-08T20:58:59Z")
Well, it does have to be a “reasonable” accomodation, wring. I’m not sure how much a touch screen would cost, or how willing customers would be to screw around with that sort of thing, so I’m reserving judgment on its reasonableness here. You’re by no means out of the reasonablenss ballpark on that accomodation, however. ---
**Author:** ![horhay\_achoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/28 "2002-08-08T21:00:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\ ***horhay** - points being: > > 1. Even persons w/ no hearing loss can and do get orders wrong. > > 2. Her disability _per se_ wasn’t the problem, the problem was that the appropriate accomodation wasn’t being utilized. > > 3. with the proper accomodation some one w/her disability **could** in fact perform that job, so Subway wasn’t wrong to have had ‘that person in that job’. \*\* 1. So why throw another wrench into the gears? 2. I addressed this in the OP, but if the subway did not want to make the accomodation, the Subway should not have hired her to fill the position. 3. Without the proper acomodation Subway is wrong, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/29 "2002-08-08T21:00:55Z")
**horhay** what’s wrong is that your assumption was incorrect. The woman could do the job, she needed specific accomodations in order to do it well, the employer hadn’t provided same to her. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/30 "2002-08-08T21:04:12Z")
but **horhay** to belabor the point, in your OP you blame Subway **for hiring her for that position** , not for failing to provide the reasonable accomodations, and then go on to suggest that she can’t do that job (even tho’ you actually came up w/a reasonable accomodation that would have worked)\> so, your OP’s wrath is misplaced. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/31 "2002-08-08T21:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ferrous \* > \*\* > A similar anecdote: > When I lived in Santa Cruz (the PC capital of the world), the local college radio station had a DJ with a _severe_ speech impediment. I think she had some neurological disease or something, but she was very hard to understand, and had a bad stutter. I don’t think there was anything wrong with her cognitive abilities, but IMO it was absolutely ridiculous to hire her for a job where excellent verbal communication skills are required. > \*\* I don’t know how they do things in Santa Cruz, but at some schools campus DJs work on a strictly volunteer basis and are not “hired” at all – any student is allowed to work as a DJ if a time slot is available. ---
**Author:** ![horhay\_achoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/32 "2002-08-08T21:08:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*but **horhay** to belabor the point, in your OP you blame Subway **for hiring her for that position** , not for failing to provide the reasonable accomodations, and then go on to suggest that she can’t do that job (even tho’ you actually came up w/a reasonable accomodation that would have worked)\> > > so, your OP’s wrath is misplaced. \*\* True ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/33 "2002-08-08T21:09:39Z")
What’s wrong, horhay, is singling them out because of their disabilities. There is nothing more egregious about a deaf person messing up your order than a lazy jerk messing up your order. But how many great debates have you started about whether Burger King should have lazy jerks working the drive thru window? BTW, what do you mean she “takes your order,” anyway? At every Subway I’ve ever been to, you tell the _sandwich maker_ what you want, supervise them while they make it, then pay the cashier based on the sandwich that you’ve had made. It would be essentially impossible to order a 12-inch club and get a 6-inch turkey. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/34 "2002-08-08T21:26:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\*I don’t know how they do things in Santa Cruz, but at some schools campus DJs work on a strictly volunteer basis and are not “hired” at all – any student is allowed to work as a DJ if a time slot is available. \*\* Hmm, I hadn’t thought of that. You’re right, that’s probably how it was there too. Still, I got a real “chip on the shoulder” vibe from that person. (“I’m going to take a speaking job even though I can barely speak and _dare_ anyone to say anything about it.”) But that’s not really relevant to the discussion at hand, so I’ll shut up now. ---
**Author:** ![Mandos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mandos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandos)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/35 "2002-08-08T21:31:12Z")
There is nothing wrong with refusing to place someone obviously hampered in communication in a paid position that requires them to do so. It is only common sense. Second, I don’t see why companies should be forced to make accommodations for people with disabilities. If part of the job requirements is the ability to walk up stairs, and someone needs a wheel chair, why shouldn’t they be refused? Why should the company have to shape its job requirements in order to accommodate people with disabilities? If an expensive voice command system could be provided to avoid the need for, say, arms, should a company be forced to provide it lest someone without arms wants a job as bus driver? What of stupidity? Is not stupidity a disability of sorts? Should companies be forced to accommodate stupidity? Maybe someone can explain this situation to me. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/36 "2002-08-08T21:55:39Z")
Try [these guys](http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adahom1.htm), Mandos. [This page](http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/qandaeng.htm) is particularly helpful to people who don’t speak legalese for a living. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/37 "2002-08-08T22:16:14Z")
I’m inclined to agree with the OP. How’s this for a less inflammatory situation? Just this afternoon, I had to call Discrete to authorize a copy of 3DStudio Max 4. The authorization procedure itself is fairly simple- I tell the operator who I am, what company I work for, the serial number for the software, and the program-generated “request number”. The operator then runs all that through his/her computer, and reads back a twenty-some-odd digit number, which I put into my computer, allowing me to use the software. Simple, right? The only problem was that the operator had a very thick, almost impenetrable accent- I’m not sure what kind. _It took us fifteen minutes for me to understand the numbers he was reading to me._ Tell me that’s not screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/38 "2002-08-08T22:28:45Z")
That’s screwed up. But does it mean the guy should be put in a back room somewhere so that there’s no danger he will ever have to communicate with a customer? ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/39 "2002-08-08T22:53:11Z")
Call me insensitive, but… well, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980/40 "2002-08-08T23:13:21Z")
No mopping the Discrete Software lobby for Mr. Accented Tech Support Guy, I guess. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-all-for-equal-employment-but/122980.md?page=3)