[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by pldennison *
Well, great. So far we have a sample size of one, who claims it took him 15 minutes to understand a string of digits. Either the person on the other end of the phone was a cleft-palated Welsh speaker with a mouthful of cotton, or maybe some of the problem was on the listener’s end.
[\QUOTE]
You are able to grasp the concept that if that sample size increases from one to say, 100 similar complaints a month, that could indicate a problem?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by pldennison *
Have you ever heard of the fallacy of the excluded middle?
Because it was a stupid analogy, which I stated.
[\QUOTE]
Have you ever heard of an ad hominem?
Maybe I’m talking to someone. Maybe I can’t see behind the counter. Doesn’t matter.
If you want to make this a personal issue, I would suggest opening a Pit thread and go rant in there by yourself. I will not be joining you since I have better things to do than engage in a ‘who can type the most profanities’ contest.
We aren’t talking about making a frigin sandwhich. We are talking about taking a frigin order from a frigin customer.
No, I don’t not think disabled people are generally as good at most jobs as non disabled people for the same reason I would not be as good at my job while blindfolded or with one arm tied behind my back. Obviously it depends on the job and the disability. I wouldn’t think that Stephen Hawkins would make a good Subway employee but he makes a fine physicist. WOULD…YOU…LIKE…A…COKE…WITH…THAT?
Jumping in and helping does not always help. You can’t make a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnent. In the business world we call that "diminishing returns’. DMC - That’s a fine story but the fact remains is that if you piss off your customers enough, they will go elsewhere if they can. I still question the business rational for hiring disabled baggers, compensating their slowness with more cashiers (which shouldn’t help at all since the baggers are the bottleneck) and then telling customers to accept the inconvenience or go somewhere else. Cut human interest pieces in the local paper are irrelevant. Show me the companies financials before and after the decision and I’ll tell you if it was a good one or not. Cosmopolitan - I think we are in complete agreement. Except for equating willfull ignorance with stupidity. There are some people who just aren’t all that bright.
Still, a woman who works at a clothing store near my workplace is deaf or hard of hearing. She is not relegated to the back room, but has interacted with customers every time I’ve seen her there. So far as I can tell, the other employees do not have a problem with her, nor do the other customers.
Well, duh. But extrapolating from one anecdote to one hundred complaints without any other data is simple speculation, nothing more. I’m certain that you know this; if you asked one of your clients to extrapolate from a single data point, you’d be fired, wouldn’t you?
Yes, I have. Asking if you’re aware you’ve presented a false dichotomy (or falsely excluded the middle) between “perhaps the listener has difficulty understanding non-native speakers” and “perhaps the customer should have to learn Russian or Hindi” is not an ad hominem. Nor is calling one’s analogy stupid (as opposed to calling the presenter stupid). So I guess I have to ask if you’ve heard of an ad hominem, because you don’t appear to know what one is.
It bloody well does at Subway. The entire counter is visible from beginning to end for specifically this reason! What’s more, the sandwich maker asks you questions during the process. You can’t just wave those facts away and pretend they don’t matter.
You brought it up, when you referred to “people like me” and accused me of “coddling people with disabilities.” If you don’t intend to expand on and defend your arguments, then don’t make them! But don’t get defensive on me when I ask you to defend them. Now, are you going to, or aren’t you? If not, I’ll consider them retracted.
In this specific case, the two are intertwined.
Well, at least you admit it. So, are you willing to explain how, say, missing a limb or being blind prevents one from being as good a teacher, or accountant, or what have you? Or is this just one of those things that should be obvious? I can’t, for the life of me, imagine how missing an arm would make one not as good at “most jobs.”
Because some shoppers might derive utility from seeing disabled people being given employment, and that utility outweighs any inconvenience they might experience. Surely you’re familiar with the economic concept of utility, and of nontangible goods? I know you are, because I’ve seen you argue them in other threads.
I, for example, am willing to pay more for eggs which come from free-range hens, because I derive utility from the industry using non-caged hens. I vote with my money, like all of us good little capitalists do. Other shoppers might consider equal opportunity employment itself a worthy goal, and their utility from giving money to a company that practices it is higher than their utility from time or money saved at a competitor that does not.
Irrelevant. It assumes that the company’s only measure of its own success is its balance sheet. If the company is willing to sacrifice a certain amount of profit margin for goodwill accruing from satisfying a particular market segment, it will consider itself successful.
As I no longer work there, I’m not really able to provide their financials (nor would I if I did), but suffice it to say that grocery stores are in business to make money, just like everyone else. If a decision isn’t profitable, they will change it.
I was in charge of IT operations for the chain, a department which, among other things, provided the owner with all sorts of reports regarding sales, traffic, etc. His decision was not only done with good intentions, it proved to be a sound business decision.
As for pissing customers off, almost every business does that. It’s which customers you decide to make mad that makes the biggest difference in the long run. If you also manage to pick up large numbers of new customers, precisely for the same reason that a few grumps get mad, then that’s even better. Show me a Subway in my town that hires disabled folks, and I’ll write down my order and gladly drive out of my way to go there tomorrow, even though I’m not a fan of their sandwiches.
I think this is a matter of semantics &, perhaps, my personal biases - I feel that “stupid” has a very negative connotation, whereas another word or phrase (“of below average intelligence”, for example) has less of a value judgement attached to it.
Hasty generalization - You have provided no evidence to support this claim. Just because some people do this does not mean that most or all do.
By your own statement, you admit that an accent or other unfamiliar speach pattern makes communication difficult.
In my opinion, if you are in a business that depends on being able effectively communicate with customers, you should strive to make that communication as effortless for the customer as possible.
I don’t think this is even an argument. It is simply a statment of your position on this topic. And not a very clear statement at that.
I thought I answered these clearly enough but I will try again:
-No, the company should not poll everyone.
-The company SHOULD have a process for measuring various call center performance metrics. These metrics are fairly standardized across the industry.
-Ability to understand a customer service rep is a valid performance metric.
-You are using circular reasoning (as well as other logical fallacies) - One can assume he speaks fluently because he was hired and we only hire people who speak fluently? One cannot assume. We don’t know the circumstances around why this person was hired. People are hired and turn out to not be good fits all the time.
See comments re: Marlee Matlin.
This is not an argument. You take offense at the terms I chose. Fine. Do you agree that a deaf person in a minimum wage job (in this case Subway) can perform the job as well (or no worse than) drug addicts or people lacking intelligence, drive or social skills?
Why is my scenario “fake”?
More snide replys. On this we agree, however if a person is deaf and a position requires an ability to hear, I would have to say that being deaf impedes their ability to be effective in that position. Maybe I’m wrong and being deaf isn’t as big a handicap as I thought.
Does being an actress qualify someone to work a front counter?
Your argument is inconsistent. Lawyer and doctor are different from cashier but Oscar winning actress isn’t?
If it was a cleft-paleted Welshman, should he have been in a role where he is required to speak clearly to customers?
Yes. So do you feel that a customer service center should hire employees who are fluent in the predominant language of the customer?
Your unsupported opinion.
Then don’t respond.
You do not “know” me at all.
My philosophy on life is a little more complex than “more money = superior human being”.
Trying to paint me as materialistic or shallow does not invalidate my opinion that a particular disability (ie deafness) can reduce a persons ability to perform a certain job (ie Subway cashier clerk).
But you would want a deaf person taking your sandwich order?
Yes, if hippo fatso that disability directly interfears with a persons ability to perform that job.
[quote]
pldennison
No, Lightnin’, you’re right – the first time I brought it up, I did so in a general sense; the second time, I addressed your particular experience, and made you the unwitting victim of my snarkiness towards msmith. I apologize – I shouldn’t have done that.
[/quoke]
If snarkiness is another word for “jerk”, you shouldn’t be doing that towords anyone.
[quote]
pldennison
Well, duh. But extrapolating from one anecdote to one hundred complaints without any other data is simple speculation, nothing more. I’m certain that you know this; if you asked one of your clients to extrapolate from a single data point, you’d be fired, wouldn’t you?
[/quoke]
I can recognize that taking 15 minutes to complete a service call is not the way to do things. All I am suggesting is that if that is a pattern that repeats itself, it should be addressed.
Its hyperbole. The real question is “to what degree should the business cater to the language/communication needs of its customers”
My answer is - they should do so as much as possible provided it’s cost effective.
“Because it was a stupid analogy”
“I think your comparison was rather stupid.”
"This I won’t even dignify with an answer. "
"Do we both get to make up fake scenarios that help our case? "
"and I can’t even believe I need to point out the obviousness to a college educated person "
"I know from previous threads that you think making – and spending – more money actually makes you a superior human being. "
IIRC, an ad hominem is attacking the arguer, not the argument. Saying “your comparison is stupid”, implying that I am materialistic or elitist, and your generally sarcastic tone (as much as one can “read” sarcasm) can all be interpreted as personal attacks. The fact that you called the comparison stupid and not me is irrelevant. It shows disrespect for the arguer because you feel the argument is beneth even formulating a logical response.
Philosophically, I believe that I should not have to watch a Subway (or any other sandwich shop) employee like a hawk. I expect a certain level of professionalism that includes making my order correctly once you have confirmed what I asked for.
I am under the impression from your attitude and coments that you feel that people should give special consideration to the disabled. That includes cutting them more slack at work, special hiring consideration or making special other accomidations. If that is not how you feel, then I retract my statement.
Missing a limb would probably not hinder teaching
Blind accountants may have a hard time since most companies do not write their ledgers in Braile.
I don’t know what your job is, but I bet it would be a lot harder if you put one hand behind your back for the entire day.
I broke my leg in college. I found I was not able to move as fast, carry as many books (cause I was on crutches) and what have you. Yes these are all surmountable challenges, but they certainly reduced my overall effectiveness.
Hey, if that’s customers want it, they can have it. I am curious to see how much convenience customers would be willing to sacrifice for the utility of seeing cute little retarded boys bagging groceries.
A companies balance sheet is irrelevant? Goodwill is only useful if it translates into long-term profitability. If I were talking to a supermarket owner, I would have to convince him that there were long term financial benefits to hiring disabled employees. This might come in the form of averted lawsuits or whatever but the financials are never irrelevant.
Also, the store needs to consider how large the ‘pro-retarded bagboy’ market segment is compared to the ‘I got 2 screaming kids in the SUV and I want to get home’ segment.
I will try to fix your coding errors when I can, msmith. (Does this count as a disability?)
Evidence that, if you’re not used to hearing a non-native speaker speak English, you might have difficulty understanding non-native speakers speak English? Uh . . . ok. What kind of evidence would you like?
Good thing I never claimed that! I’m glad we’re past that ugly episode.
So what if your call center gets a lot of calls from non-native speakers. You know, in an industry like (going out on a limb here) software engineering? Do they hire a psychic non-native speaker and say, “You! Only answer calls from non-native speakers!”
Thank you.
Do they use “A single complaint on an unrelated message board” as the metric? If not, we can assume this point conceded as well. Thank you.
Consistent ability, on an ongoing basis, yes? Not after a single phone call, I assume? Again, thank you.
No, one can assume that if he spoke fluently enough to be hired, there was no reason to assume he would be unintelligible to the average customer.
No, I disagree that that is an accurate characterization of the average minimum-wage jobholder. Maybe in your neighborhood, but maybe you just live in a crappy neighborhood.
How severe is their deafness? One ear, or both? Can a hearing aid give them limited hearing? Can they lip-read, or are they limited to ASL? If they can lip-read, how fluently?
Because it was a loaded question – it stated outright that the deafness was the reason for the difference in job performance.
But being on the front counter at a fast-food restaurant doesn’t require an ability to hear. It requires an ability to take customer orders accurately. If that can be accomplished by a non-hearing person, there is no problem. I am not arguing that it can in the specific case of the OP, but in the general case it’s certainly true.
I think we can take it as a given that jobs that require an ability to hear cannot adequately be performed by a deaf person. I think we can also take it as a given that Christopher Reeve isn’t going to become a neurosurgeon.
I think we can assume that, as a stage and screen actress, Marlee Matlin is required to hit marks, take cues from the director and crew, know when her fellow actors are done with their lines, and communicate her lines accurately to the audience or the camera. Therefore, I assume that she would be qualified to, at least, work at Subway. If you have an argument that contradicts that, I’d like to see it. That does not mean she’d be qualified to practice law or perform an appendectomy.
Probably not. But I bet it wasn’t.
Yes, including fluent non-native speakers.
Only from what you’ve written. Can I assume I know you at least as well as you know me, or at least cough “people like me?”
Sure, why not? Assuming for the sake of the argument that they lip-read, I would have no problem with that. Since I’ve worked extensively in broadcasting, I speak quite clearly. What’s more, I can recognize when someone is deaf, so I’ll speak a little more slowly.
And I never argued otherwise.
Well, not exactly, it isn’t. It’s a little more complicated than that; it’s arguing that the argument is invalid because of who the arguer is.
?? So, if I say your car is ugly, I’m saying that you’re ugly?
Typical Subway experience:
“Hello, sir, what can I get you?”
“A six-inch turkey, please.”
“What kind of bread?”
“Wheat, please.”
Sandwich maker grabs bread, cuts, spreads meat on sandwich.
“What would you like on that, sir?”
At this point, customer typically looks at available offerings. If, at this point, customer will probably notice whether sandwich is right size and has right meat.
“Lettuce, tomatoes, and pickles, please.”
“OK. Mayonnaise or mustard?”
“Mayo, please.”
I’d like to suggest that, if by this time, the customer has not noticed that their six-inch turkey has mutated into a twelve-inch club, maybe, just maybe, some of the fault lies with the customer. Maybe, just a little?
You are aware that they now make electronic devices that allow blind people to read written text in real-time, right?
I’ll bet you a thousand dollars that it would not. I work a desk job in inside sales. In fact, you could amputate both my arms and I assure you I could perform my job just as adequately as I do today.
Four years ago, I broke my leg and had to have ortho surgery. I also had a cast on for eight weeks and had to have my leg elevated constantly. Despite this, except for missing one week post-surgery, I was able to work without missing a stride.
How many people on crutches, permanently (an MS sufferer or what have you) are going to apply for jobs carrying books? Actually, back when my wife and I first met, one of the women she worked with had pretty severe muscular dystrophy, and she was able to work fine. As a secretary. To the president of the company.
When I lived in Cleveland, we used to do some of our shopping at a small, local co-op called Nature’s Bin. They hired retarded baggers and cashiers. That place made money hand over fist.
Or, conversely, convince him that there were no long-term financial detriments. It’s entirely possible – not probable, but possible – for such a move to have no impact on profitability. And long-term profitability can still increase, but at a slower rate than it otherwise would. It all depends on what the owner wants. If he wants the maximum possible profit growth, it would probably be a bad move. If he wants growth combined with a certain positioning in the community, then no problem. If he stands to lose money or market share, then again, bad move.
I’d just like to add my own personal anecdote. I get copies made quite frequently at my local Kinko’s, where they employ a completely deaf man who works the evening and late night shifts. He cannot talk other than making “noises”… I don’t know what to call them; he can say hello and how are you, but not much else and it is very difficult to understand even that. Despite that, he is always pleasant and polite, and he even greets me now when I come in. (Fortunately my name isn’t difficult at all.)
I’m not sure if they decided to work him on the later shifts because he wanted to, or because he would have less chance of having to attempt communication with customers or not. At any rate, he is usually working with the machines, and they don’t put him on the counter to take orders or ring out people on the register. This is, IMO, a good decision on their part as he doesn’t seem to be very good at lip reading, and can’t communicate at all except by writing back and forth on paper. I can see how it would be needlessly frustrating for anyone to have to attempt making a large or complicated order with him when, through no fault of his own, he doesn’t have the communication skills to do that job. Especially since customers often don’t know what they want, and just like he can’t be asked “What’s the difference between this cardstock and this 100 lb paper?” you can’t ask Subway girl “Have you had [some sandwich, I don’t eat there]? Do you think it’s any good?” This doesn’t make the job impossible for them, of course, but it is probably a bit more burden on the part of the customer than they expect coming into the restaurant.
I agree that Subway Girl needs to either have a system worked out making it easier for customers to articulate exactly what they want to her, or else be moved to a different position where communication is not such a key element of what she is doing. Failing that, Subway should perhaps consider scheduling her work in off-peak times, when customers are likely to be more understanding of a slightly longer order time, and more patient (at least until she acquires the ability to do her job more accurately and efficiently). Having witnessed cranky business lunch-rushes plenty of times, that isn’t fair to either the customers or the unfortunate employee. (Many customers in such situations can become quite abusive.) I was not certain whether the OP was in that situation or not, but usually when there are long lines and the employees are under heavy stress, that is the case.
All that being said, I have deliberately started going to Kinko’s late at night to have my copies and printouts made. The deaf fellow there (who I feel guilty for having forgotten his name) knows exactly how I like my work done, he handles it with the absolutely most care (you can imagine I turn pretty red when I see one of the employees toss around one of my $200 drawings or paintings like it’s someone’s office memo), and does the best job of getting things perfectly centred and the colour contrast just right of anyone that I’ve ever had do that sort of thing for me. I have no problem writing out what I want on a notepad in order to assure that it is him taking care of my work. So while his deafness makes him unsuitable for the counter work, he is still, IMO, the best damn employee they have working there. I believe they have done a very good job of accomidating his handicap, while still being able to maintain the best customer service possible. I’d also like to add that he seems to have no problems communicating with his co-workers; they even apparently have some of their own hand signs worked out. All in all, a winning situation for everyone involved.
What a surprise. More rudeness and sarcasm. :rolleyes:
That is not what you said. You said that people tune out when they hear an accent instead of paying closer attention.
Evidence could be in the form of a Gartner Group report on customer’s interactions with call centers.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by pldennison *
So what if your call center gets a lot of calls from non-native speakers. You know, in an industry like (going out on a limb here) software engineering? Do they hire a psychic non-native speaker and say, “You! Only answer calls from non-native speakers!”
[/qoute]
:rolleyes:
“Que continuar en espanol, press dos.”
At which point you are sent to a spanish (or whatever language) speaking rep. You shld not be sent to a ‘broken spanish’ speaking rep.
You design your call center to meet the needs of the majority of your customers, not the other way around.
ANY complaint should be addressed by a business. If I was a manager and heard that a call lasted 15 minutess longer than usual, I would want to know if it was a one time occurance or a chronic problem. Either way, I would look into it.
One cannot assume anything. Considering that I have talked to at least one service rep who was unintelligible because of a thick accent, your statement is invalidated. Companies make poor hiring decisions all the time.
:rolleyes: Such a child.
I didn’t say those were average characteristics. Just common.
Use the Subway worker as an example. I believe she is totally deaf?
Yes and no. What I really wanted to know is if you think that it is okay to terminate an employee because their disability is interfearing with their job performance.
It seems that you do think it is ok, in which case we are in agreement.
The problem is that the orders are generally communicated orally.
So then the debate really boils down to “does a counterperson at Subway require an ability to hear to perform her job?”. In my opinion, yes they do. I don’t think there is anything that will change that opinion untill I see a completely deaf Subway person performing their job during peak hours as well as a typical non-deaf person.
Performing a scripted scene with other professionals who are aware of your condition in a controlled environment is a lot diferent that dealing with a constant barage of hurried customers mumbling drink and sandwhich orders. She knows what she has to say and when she has to say it. I’m oversimplifying a little but the point is that just being a great deaf actor doesn’t necesarily make someone a great deaf Subway employee.
Fine then we are in agreement that if you are in a service business, you should be fluent in the native language but you don’t have to be a native.
And I never argued otherwise.
Well, not exactly, it isn’t. It’s a little more complicated than that; it’s arguing that the argument is invalid because of who the arguer is.
?? So, if I say your car is ugly, I’m saying that you’re ugly?
Typical Subway experience:
“Hello, sir, what can I get you?”
“A six-inch turkey, please.”
“What kind of bread?”
“Wheat, please.”
Sandwich maker grabs bread, cuts, spreads meat on sandwich.
“What would you like on that, sir?”
At this point, customer typically looks at available offerings. If, at this point, customer will probably notice whether sandwich is right size and has right meat.
“Lettuce, tomatoes, and pickles, please.”
“OK. Mayonnaise or mustard?”
“Mayo, please.”
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by pldennison *
I’d like to suggest that, if by this time, the customer has not noticed that their six-inch turkey has mutated into a twelve-inch club, maybe, just maybe, some of the fault lies with the customer. Maybe, just a little?
Should the firm bear the cost of this equipment when they can hire a CPA who doesn’t need it?
This vivisection by VB Code on both our parts is getting really difficult to follow, msmith. Is it a conversation that really needs to be continued, or do we appear to be in agreement on the broad, general portions of the question?
I think the word any is what you are missing here. The two statements:
“they shouldn’t be put in a postion to communicate with the public.”
And:
“Again, who said that deaf people shouldn’t be put in the any position that deals with customers?”
I think have different meanings. “Any postion that deals with customers” could mean sweeping the floor at Subway. I see someone sweeping the floor and ask where the bathroom is, for instance. I have not seen anyone in this thread suggest that deaf people should be kept from any possible customer contact.
An example of “a postion to communicate with the public” is the order taker at Subway. Communicating with customers isn’t jsut something that might occur in this position, it is the primary function of the postion.
I am deaf and would love to be waited on by a deaf person. Although I can speak normally, my lip reading isn’t so hot.
Carrying around a pen and paper is inconveinent, I admit, but if I do it to communicate with the hearing world, then you all should be able to return the favor.
That being said, I do not think that someone who, like myself, is unable to adaquatly read lips, should not be employed in a posotion where quick and accurate communication with the public is necassary.