# I'm an evil bastard. Can I get into Heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460 "2011-12-16T22:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/1 "2011-12-16T22:42:29Z")
According to Christian theology, that is - answers along the lines of “no, because Heaven doesn’t exist” won’t be particularly useful. Inspired by the threads on Christopher Hitchens (not that I’m saying he’s an evil bastard - neither am I, it’s all hypothetical). Let’s say I’m a hardened criminal. Never been to a church unless it’s to steal lead off the roof, never baptised, never given a second though to matters religion - for or against. That is, I think of myself as neither Atheist or Christian - all I care about is indulging in the criminal lifestyle at the expense of innocents. Murder, assault, robbery, arson…my existence has made many, many others miserable. One day whilst attempting to murder someone for the fun of it I get a knife in the gut from my would-be victim. The police rejoice that the one-man crime spree is at an end, but despite doctors doing all they can it looks like I won’t survive long enough to face the criminal justice system. As I lay dying in the hospital bed, thoughts turn to possible afterlives. I call the padre over and make a last-minute conversion to Christianity just before I take a trip to Costa del Blowfly. Do I get into the Kingdom of Heaven or not? Does it matter if I’m genuinely repentant and really believe that I’m accepting Jesus Christ as my personal saviour, as opposed to just hedging my bets and answering Pascal’s Wager? Or is the idea of a deathbed conversion being a ticket out just a fallacy? How would my plight compare to a good and decent man in the Amazon jungle, who has never heard of Christianity? Or a good unbeliever who was killed too quickly to make a conversion? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/2 "2011-12-16T22:48:19Z")
In the denomination I grew up in – the Church of God in Christ, a Pentecostal church – the evil bastard who makes a sincere and genuine last-minute confession gets into heaven. Furthermore, COGIC holds that there is no such thing as a good and decent man who has never heard of Christianity, so they’d say that part of your question is as meaningless as asking what is north of the North Pole. My father is fond of quoting this line: > [@the asshole known to history as St. Paul](#): > > 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. ETA: This also means that children who day before being to confess Christ with their mouths roast in hell for eternity. Accordin g to assholes, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/3 "2011-12-16T22:53:49Z")
If you take the orphan child of a good person, and raise that child as a good person despite your own belief in Evil Bastardism, then surely you will enter Heaven. I’ve heard anyway, can’t find follow up studies confirming that. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/4 "2011-12-16T22:57:22Z")
The answer is you must become ready to be Jesus in your life, to be as giving and loving from the heart. This can happen in a instant, such as the thief on the cross, or you can ‘refined’ over a long time, perhaps spend some time in Hell. Basically you can’t be a evil bastard in the Kingdom, it doesn’t work there and it will bar you from entry. So you get to be a evil bastard for as long as you want here, but have to leave that here to move on. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/5 "2011-12-17T01:33:29Z")
Are you (the hypothetical “you” of the OP, of course) a sociopath? I’ve wondered whether it’s possible for a sociopath to “be saved,” to “enter the Kingdom of Heaven”—do sociopaths have souls, in whatever sense you understand what that means? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/6 "2011-12-17T02:22:49Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Does it matter if I’m genuinely repentant and really believe that I’m accepting Jesus Christ as my personal saviour, as opposed to just hedging my bets and answering Pascal’s Wager? I’d say these things matter. You have to have a sincere deathbed conversion for it to work and that includes genuine remorse and belief. But if you mange that, Christian doctrine is you’re forgiven and get into Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/7 "2011-12-17T04:26:02Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > According to Christian theology… It’s false, like all religions are. Any hypothetical having a false premise, can have any consequent as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/8 "2011-12-17T05:17:37Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > It’s false, like all religions are. > > Any hypothetical having a false premise, can have any consequent as a result. That’s not true. You can only have a valid result if it’s consistent with the parameters of the hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/9 "2011-12-17T05:25:06Z")
According to Christian theology Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven so why not you? That is the “great” thing about vicarious redemption…god doesn’t give a hoot what you do in life as long as you praise him in the right way the correct point in your life. But those not born to christian parents…it’s eternal damnation for them no matter “good” they are. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/10 "2011-12-17T05:29:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s not true. You can only have a valid result if it’s consistent with the parameters of the hypothetical. It’s Logic 101. You have: If A then B. If A is false then B can be whatever you want and the hypothetical will still be logically valid. For example, If the Himalayas are 10 feet high from sea level, then I have 45 hands. The Himalayas are not 10 feet tall. Therefore the above hypothetical is logically consistent. Similarly, if Christian claims are true, then a criminal will (or will not) go to heaven. All Christian claims are false. Therefore a criminal could or could not go to heaven and the above statement would be logically consistent. The reality is that there’s no heaven, though, as we all know. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/11 "2011-12-17T05:57:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > According to Christian theology Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven so why not you? It depends which cherries one picks: [http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html](http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html) Also, if poor Jeffrey ever blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, he’s screwed: > **[Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 12:31-32 - New International Version](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2B12%3A31-32&version=NIV)** > > And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/12 "2011-12-17T08:13:02Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > It’s Logic 101. > > You have: If A then B. If A is false then B can be whatever you want and the hypothetical will still be logically valid. That’s not how a hypothetical works. For example suppose you asked “If John McCain had been elected President in 2008, who do you think he would have named for Secretary of State?” And my answer was “Thomas Jefferson.” Now you’d point out that Jefferson died in 1826 and couldn’t have been Secretary of State in 2008. Would you accept my logic if I claimed that McCain wasn’t elected in 2008, so it’s a false premise and that means any result is possible? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/13 "2011-12-17T08:21:30Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > It’s false, like all religions are. > > Any hypothetical having a false premise, can have any consequent as a result. Do you think you’re adding something new to the discussion by doing this? That everyone is going to realize OH WAIT, THIS THREAD IS POINTLESS, RELIGION IS WRONG LOL!"? The OP excluded your response in the very first line of his post. Anyway, if you must, treat it like fiction. If someone asks “Could Gandalf have taken the ring to Mordor himself?” would you come in yelling “HEY GUYS LORD OF THE RINGS ISN’T REAL!!!”? You can still ask about the logical implications of theology without thinking it has any merit. Anyway, as to the thread, isn’t the whole point of the tale of the thief that died with Jesus on the cross that the answer to this question is yes? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/14 "2011-12-17T08:24:43Z")
McCain’s old enough; it’s possible no one ever told him Jefferson was dead. Back when I was a believer, I always figured God was sharp enough to tell when someone’s trying to flimflam him so I would say, if you honestly believed that you had lived in error and wished you could make up for it, then you’d get into heaven. If you converted because you wanted to hedge your bets or for a laugh, burn in hell, sucker. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/15 "2011-12-17T08:25:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > …For example suppose you asked "If John McCain had been elected President in 2008… You’re playing with linguistic vagueness here. This is not a logical argument, only one that depends on precise grammatical definitions. Your “If XXX had been elected” is reduced to "If XXX is President, then… ". The statement: If J Mc C is President then he can choose Jefferson as his VP, is false because the antecedent may be true, but the consequent is always false. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/16 "2011-12-17T08:29:42Z")
Senor, I’ve always felt that that story should have stayed a secret. The thief had no idea that Jesus was willing to admit him to paradise when he defended him, but for anyone who has heard that story, all their acts of good will are now suspect, even to the actor himself. "I defend Jesus which makes me like the good thief so I will attain heaven, but that makes me prideful so I won’t but the recognition of my sinfulness makes me humble so I will attain heaven which is arrogance so I won’t ad infinitum. " ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/17 "2011-12-17T08:30:15Z")
In other words, don’t fight the hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/18 "2011-12-17T08:39:18Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > In other words, don’t fight the hypothetical. In other words, only reason and logic prevail. The rest is human mental garbage. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/19 "2011-12-17T08:53:17Z")
Gandalf isn’t real folks, stop the discussion ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/20 "2011-12-17T08:53:44Z")
Maybe **Naxos** would quit playing up if the thread was moved to Cafe Society? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460.md?page=2)