# I'm an evil bastard. Can I get into Heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460 "2011-12-16T22:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/21 "2011-12-17T09:02:53Z")
“But, sir, suppose X is not the number of sheep?” ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/22 "2011-12-17T09:13:21Z")
I have a feeling I’m gonna regret answering, but here goes. My answers are based off of garden variety Christianity (protestant, if it matters) as I understand it: > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > As I lay dying in the hospital bed, thoughts turn to possible afterlives. I call the padre over and make a last-minute conversion to Christianity just before I take a trip to Costa del Blowfly. Do I get into the Kingdom of Heaven or not? Yes. > [@](#): > > Does it matter if I’m genuinely repentant and really believe that I’m accepting Jesus Christ as my personal saviour, as opposed to just hedging my bets and answering Pascal’s Wager? Pretty sure you’ve gotta be genuine. > [@](#): > > Or is the idea of a deathbed conversion being a ticket out just a fallacy? It’s not a fallacy. _shrugs_ It happens. The arrangements God makes with others and their sins is none of my business. If He wants to save 'em at the last second, who am I to say He shouldn’t? > [@](#): > > How would my plight compare to a good and decent man in the Amazon jungle, who has never heard of Christianity? They can’t be compared. You and the Amazon guy are 2 different people but you’re both in the same predicament, spiritually. That said, one has to first hear the Gospel before they can reject it, so my thought is were the Amazon guy to die without ever hearing, God’s probably got something worked out on the other side for situations like that. > [@](#): > > Or a good unbeliever who was killed too quickly to make a conversion? Again, these situations can’t be compared. You’re on your deathbed and you have a decision to make; this isn’t the time to be waffling about how God is dealing with other people. Assuming the unbeliever has heard the Gospel and pretty much said “no thanks,” they’ve already made a choice – one they’re free to change, of course, at any time. That said, nobody is guaranteed advance notice before their death so to try to “beat the system” and wait until the buzzer is foolish. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/23 "2011-12-17T10:30:52Z")
OK, I’m not going to say Christianity is false. I’m just going to say, even if it’s true, how can any sentient being worship a God who lays down these rules? If there are no atheists in foxholes (and I doubt that, but never mind), then surely there are no atheists who have just been gutshot. If the worst, most sadistic criminal in the world, with hundreds of rapes and murders to his credit, loses a gun battle with the police and thinks he is about to die, and he was raised a Christian (until he killed and ate his parents at the age of nine), then he may well call on Jesus to save him, and be totally sincere at that moment. If he survives, he will almost certainly return to his evil ways, but if he’s lucky enough to die a few seconds after his repentence, he gets into heaven. Conversely, someone raised in the Amazon with no knowledge of Christianity, but who happened to be in Guyana the day Jim Jones gave a Bible-based sermon on Jesus, has been exposed to the Gospel. If he hears the following week that Jim Jones just led a mass suicide, he is likely to discount whatever he heard Jones say about salvation. But too bad for him, no matter how good the life he leads, and no matter how understandable it is that he would not consider Jones a credible source on the afterlife, he heard the Gospel, and he rejected it, and he’s going to hell. Seriously, how can Christians criticize atheism because it has no absolute morality, when stuff like this, as well as the barbaric Law of Moses, is their example of absolute morality? ---
**Author:** ![BeaMyra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@BeaMyra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeaMyra)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/24 "2011-12-17T11:17:04Z")
Yes you will go to heavean > [@](#): > > For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Christianity says you are saved by faith not works alone. Look at when Jesus was walking and the sick person says, “If only I can touch his robe I’ll be healed.” She (or was it a he) touches the robe and is instantly healed. Jesus did NOT heal her. Her faith in Jesus healed her. Remember at the cross (in one of the Gospels) one thief mocks, the other says he believes. That thief went to heaven. Why? Because of his belief. Of course in James you find a bit of circular logic with “Faith without good works is dead.” In other words, a horrible person can go to heaven, but no one destined for heaven would ever be horrible. So yes, you could see Hitler, Stalin, and Walt Disney (:)) in heaven ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/25 "2011-12-17T11:33:09Z")
> [@BeaMyra](#): > > In other words, a horrible person can go to heaven, but no one destined for heaven would ever be horrible. So yes, you could see Hitler, Stalin, and Walt Disney (:)) in heaven Even if Hitler repented before the end, since his final act was to top himself wouldn’t that preclude him being in heaven? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/26 "2011-12-17T12:03:24Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > The rest is human mental garbage. Lead by example, I always say. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/27 "2011-12-17T12:49:24Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > It’s false, like all religions are. > > Any hypothetical having a false premise, can have any consequent as a result. Despite the schooling you received regarding your odd views of logic that were consequent to this post, the post is not appropriate to this thread. We get it; you don’t like religion. That being the case, you are still threadshitting and if you cannot control yourself, you need to stay out of discussions of religion. Do not do this again. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/28 "2011-12-17T13:38:35Z")
The problem with the questions in the OP is that you will get as many answers as there are Christian denominations, and that number (and the nature of the answers) will change with time, as sects come and go. There can only be a definitive answer within a specific denomination’s doctrine. There is no answer shared by all Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/29 "2011-12-17T15:26:51Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > The problem with the questions in the OP is that you will get as many answers as there are Christian denominations, and that number (and the nature of the answers) will change with time, as sects come and go. There can only be a definitive answer within a specific denomination’s doctrine. There is no answer shared by all Christians. Interesting, thought this might be the case given the wide variety of denominations, but hoped that on the rather large issue that is the afterlife and Heaven would be a bit more unified. So, to be more specific - if the gentleman in holy orders tending to my dying form was Roman Catholic, could I get into Catholic heaven? What about Mormon heaven? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/30 "2011-12-17T16:16:42Z")
Catholism - baptism, confession, repentance, extreme unction, and you’re golden. But there is a catch - it must be sincere. Hedging your bets does not count. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/31 "2011-12-17T17:23:29Z")
So, redemption and holiness are only a matter of timing? If God really existed, I’d refuse to kneel before him just for thinking this is the proper way to run things. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/32 "2011-12-17T17:57:36Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > The problem with the questions in the OP is that you will get as many answers as there are Christian denominations, and that number (and the nature of the answers) will change with time, as sects come and go. There can only be a definitive answer within a specific denomination’s doctrine. There is no answer shared by all Christians. I suppose you can find some sects who think otherwise, but I expect the consensus answer for Christians is Yes, you would get into heaven based on a sincere deathbed confession. See the incident of the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Also, from a slightly different angle, the[parable of the workers in the vineyard.](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20%3A1-16&version=NIV) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tmarcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@tmarcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tmarcl)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/33 "2011-12-17T19:29:33Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > According to Christian theology, that is - answers along the lines of “no, because Heaven doesn’t exist” won’t be particularly useful. Inspired by the threads on Christopher Hitchens (not that I’m saying he’s an evil bastard - neither am I, it’s all hypothetical). > > Let’s say I’m a hardened criminal. Never been to a church unless it’s to steal lead off the roof, never baptised, never given a second though to matters religion - for or against. That is, I think of myself as neither Atheist or Christian - all I care about is indulging in the criminal lifestyle at the expense of innocents. Murder, assault, robbery, arson…my existence has made many, many others miserable. > > One day whilst attempting to murder someone for the fun of it I get a knife in the gut from my would-be victim. The police rejoice that the one-man crime spree is at an end, but despite doctors doing all they can it looks like I won’t survive long enough to face the criminal justice system. > > As I lay dying in the hospital bed, thoughts turn to possible afterlives. I call the padre over and make a last-minute conversion to Christianity just before I take a trip to Costa del Blowfly. Do I get into the Kingdom of Heaven or not? Does it matter if I’m genuinely repentant and really believe that I’m accepting Jesus Christ as my personal saviour, as opposed to just hedging my bets and answering Pascal’s Wager? Or is the idea of a deathbed conversion being a ticket out just a fallacy? > > How would my plight compare to a good and decent man in the Amazon jungle, who has never heard of Christianity? Or a good unbeliever who was killed too quickly to make a conversion? Per Romans (I think), the answer to your first question is that there are only two requirements for salvation: That you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and that you believe in your heart that God rose him from the dead. Therefore, if, in your last moments, you actually came to that conclusion, you would be saved. As for the decent man who has never heard the gospel, Paul argues that God has written the law on men’s heart, so they are without excuse. My pastor, back when I was a Christian, told me that it had to do with the individual realizing that everything he had done “good” in life wouldn’t get him into heaven, but only the mercy of whoever was in charge. He expressed it as “how much light one had in the darkness.” I don’t necessarily understand what he was saying, nor do I agree with it, but that’s what I was taught back then. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/34 "2011-12-17T20:08:38Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > I’m an evil bastard. Can I get into Heaven? Yes, but you have already posted your intent to make amends on your deathbed so be advised that evil bastard heaven looks a lot like Walmart. Imagine Gilbert Gottfried as the door greeter instead of St Peter. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/35 "2011-12-17T21:22:00Z")
> [@BeaMyra](#): > > Christianity says you are saved by faith not works alone. Some versions of Christianity say you are saved by faith alone. Others hold that you must have both faith and works to be saved. If you genuinely believed that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, then there is no sin other than disbelief. You can freely commit theft, murder, rape, and whatever other crimes you want - as long as you believe in Jesus, you’re forgiven for everything else. There was, in fact, an early sect of Christianity that practiced this - they would intentionally commit sinful acts (usually sexual) in order to show their faith. Their reasoning was that only people who truly believed God could save them from anything would be so willing to commit so many sins. People who were afraid to commit sins were showing they had doubts about God’s power. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/36 "2011-12-18T01:26:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Some versions of Christianity say you are saved by faith alone. Others hold that you must have both faith and works to be saved. And yet others hold that your salvation, or lack of it, was ordained long before you had a mind capable of understanding your actions. It’s kind of amazing that even people who sincerely believe that the Bible is the Word of God cannot agree on its most basic, and important, teachings. > [@](#): > > If you genuinely believed that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, then there is no sin other than disbelief. You can freely commit theft, murder, rape, and whatever other crimes you want - as long as you believe in Jesus, you’re forgiven for everything else. There was, in fact, an early sect of Christianity that practiced this - they would intentionally commit sinful acts (usually sexual) in order to show their faith. Their reasoning was that only people who truly believed God could save them from anything would be so willing to commit so many sins. People who were afraid to commit sins were showing they had doubts about God’s power. I’d like to learn more about this, but I’d guess I’d get quite a few mishits if I googled on “sin.” Can you please give the name of that sect? And where to join? ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/37 "2011-12-18T05:39:05Z")
it is pretty obvious, both the repentant thief on the cross and the parable of workers hired through out the day all getting the same wage. Truly repent and you go to heaven. If you try to game the system by following your sinful nature all your life, you may not be able to really repent. As for the good people that never heard of Christ, many Christians struggle with that. Christians didn’t set up the system. They only try to understand and follow God’s will. Even Paul admitted he didn’t have all the answers. Christians should be praying for Ahmadinejad. Edited to say for his life, not his death. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/38 "2011-12-18T06:20:57Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > I’d like to learn more about this, but I’d guess I’d get quite a few mishits if I googled on “sin.” Can you please give the name of that sect? And where to join? I believe is was the Nicolaitans but I don’t have my Ehrman handy to look it up. But this apparently was a name that was applied to them by other Christians. The “Nicolaitans” probably called themselves Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/39 "2011-12-18T09:02:21Z")
[Related thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=354495)Christians, your feelings about obvious sinners believing they’ll go to heaven? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/40 "2011-12-18T09:33:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you genuinely believed that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, then there is no sin other than disbelief. You can freely commit theft, murder, rape, and whatever other crimes you want - as long as you believe in Jesus, you’re forgiven for everything else. There was, in fact, an early sect of Christianity that practiced this - they would intentionally commit sinful acts (usually sexual) in order to show their faith. Their reasoning was that only people who truly believed God could save them from anything would be so willing to commit so many sins. People who were afraid to commit sins were showing they had doubts about God’s power. That’s interestingly wacky. Do you recall the name of the sect? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460.md?page=3)