# I'm an evil bastard. Can I get into Heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460 "2011-12-16T22:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/41 "2011-12-18T10:55:56Z")
As the lovely Jules Feiffer once said, “paraphrasing” Martin Luther (not King Jr, the churchy one): “If Christ died for our sins, dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/42 "2011-12-18T16:52:11Z")
Yes, according to my understanding of Christian Doctrine (or at least in the form I’ve been exposed to), the repentant bastard is forgiven - assuming the repentance is genuine, but enters heaven as it were naked and singed, as if having escaped a burning building. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/43 "2011-12-18T17:15:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s interestingly wacky. Do you recall the name of the sect? See Post 38. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/44 "2011-12-18T18:20:13Z")
According to Dante, latecomers to the faith skipped Hell and landed in Purgatory (actually “on” Purgatory, a gigantic mountain in Dante’s cosmology) and had to wait many ages to enter Heaven. Keep God waiting, he’ll keep you waiting. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/45 "2011-12-18T18:59:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Some versions of Christianity say you are saved by faith alone. Others hold that you must have both faith and works to be saved. > > If you genuinely believed that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, then there is no sin other than disbelief. You can freely commit theft, murder, rape, and whatever other crimes you want - as long as you believe in Jesus, you’re forgiven for everything else. There was, in fact, an early sect of Christianity that practiced this - they would intentionally commit sinful acts (usually sexual) in order to show their faith. Their reasoning was that only people who truly believed God could save them from anything would be so willing to commit so many sins. People who were afraid to commit sins were showing they had doubts about God’s power. Was this referenced in _The Name of the Rose_? That was the Docinites, or Dulcinians? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/46 "2011-12-18T19:14:15Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Was this referenced in _The Name of the Rose_? > > That was the Docinites, or Dulcinians? Probably the Docetists. They were a related doctrine that believed that Jesus’ material existence was illusionary and he was really a being of purely spiritual nature. By extension, they believed all material things, including their own bodies, were transitory and unimportant. Keep in mind that we really don’t know what these alternative beliefs really were. Most the their own writings were destroyed by other Christians who were asserting their beliefs were the right ones. In most cases, all we really know about these other beliefs are what we can learn from the refutations of them by non-believers and obviously these are biased. Imagine somebody trying to form an accurate assessment of what Catholic doctrine was if all they had to work with was a bunch of [Jack](http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp) [Chick](http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp) comics. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/47 "2011-12-18T19:16:21Z")
God knows whether you are sincere better than you do, being God and all that. The answer is yes according to any Christian theology that I am aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/48 "2011-12-18T22:22:02Z")
Billy Graham said once in an interview that he thinks that all people, including those of all faiths, will go to heaven. He quoted the scripture, “Many sheep have I that are not of this fold.” I don’t think his son Franklin Graham is of the same mind. I’m with the elder Graham on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/49 "2011-12-18T23:39:06Z")
Simple answer: I don’t know. I’m not God. When they die they’ll find out if there’s an afterlife or not and what their role in it will be if it exists. It’s not for me to say. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/50 "2011-12-19T00:44:53Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Simple answer: I don’t know. I’m not God. > > When they die they’ll find out if there’s an afterlife or not and what their role in it will be if it exists. It’s not for me to say. True. Maybe when we die, we’ll find that it’s all the atheists who get to go to Heaven. The religious people? They’re all condemned to Hell for the way they kept bothering God with their prayers all the time and never talking any initiative in solving their own problems. And those religious services? Didn’t they read in the Bible about how God likes to relax on Sundays? But he’s got all those people in church wanting him to pay attention to them while they worship him when all he wants to do is kick back, have a beer, and enjoy the game. Really, people, stop annoying God all the time. Give him a break. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/51 "2011-12-19T04:10:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Despite the schooling you received regarding your odd views of logic that were consequent to this post, the post is not appropriate to this thread. The OP assumes Heaven exists. I’m saying he’s wrong. How is my post not appropriate? > [@](#): > > We get it; you don’t like religion. That being the case, you are still threadshitting and if you cannot control yourself, you need to stay out of discussions of religion. I don’t know what “threadshitting” is. It’s not that I don’t like religion, that I don’t. It’s that I show how religion is false. Is this a problem for a Great Debates type of forum that you have here? > [@](#): > > Do not do this again. > > [/Moderating] I’m glad to follow moderator rules.. given that I’ve received a lot of warnings already… but what is it that I should not do again? Say that religion beliefs are false? Please clarify. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/52 "2011-12-19T05:23:49Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > The OP assumes Heaven exists. I’m saying he’s wrong. How is my post not appropriate? The OP was asking about “What do Christians believe about…” or “What is Christian theology’s position on…?” Such questions are worth asking and answering, whether or not what Christians believe reflects reality. Thus, your response was unhelpful and not really on topic. > [@](#): > > I don’t know what “threadshitting” is. From the [Beginner’s Guide to Glossary of Terms on Straight Dope Message Boards](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=320298): > [@](#): > > **Threadshitting** – basically, shitting on a discussion, by belittling the topic or the people discussing it. It typically takes the form of a dismissive comment, like “Who cares?” or “This is stupid!” or similar. The implication of the threadshitter is that discussion of such a topic is beneath them, and should be beneath everybody else. If you really do think that a discussion is inane or pointless, the appropriate thing to do is to not participate in it. And, of course, if you see someone threadshitting, please do not respond with personal insults or accusations: instead, REPORT the post to a Moderator. > [@](#): > > It’s not that I don’t like religion, that I don’t. It’s that I show how religion is false. Is this a problem for a Great Debates type of forum that you have here? Well, but you don’t show _how_ religion is false; you just baldly state _that_ it’s false. Which isn’t helpful: it doesn’t provide any new information, doesn’t come as news to those who already agree with you, and isn’t going to convince anyone who doesn’t. You remind me of Dana Carvey on the old SNL “McLaughlin Group” sketches, shutting down discussion by shouting “[WRONG!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6sdVx5gQz6w#t=25s)” Plus, you’re becoming predictable. It’s gotten so that any time I see that you’ve posted in a thread that’s somehow related to God or religion, I can guess pretty much exactly what you’re going to say. It’s like you’re one of those [“knee-jerk atheists”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=633457) I’ve heard about. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/53 "2011-12-19T07:15:47Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Plus, you’re becoming predictable. It’s gotten so that any time I see that you’ve posted in a thread that’s somehow related to God or religion, I can guess pretty much exactly what you’re going to say. Is this a reason for me to be banned by moderators that don’t agree with my opinions? ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/54 "2011-12-19T07:32:49Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Is this a reason for me to be banned by moderators that don’t agree with my opinions? I don’t think that the problem is with your opinion on religion. I truly think it is what I see with most Atheist. It is that they want all Christians to respect their choice in not believing in God, while at the same time throwing themselves into any discussion about God with comments about how foolish anyone is to believe, FSM and all of that. Atheists really interest me mainly because of their total lack of tolerance for those that have faith. It is like it really bothers them to no end that someone can believe in something they can’t. Why was it necessary for you to come into this discussion trying to “convince” or prove that a God doesn’t exist? How about you don’t believe in a God and let those that do discuss it. Sounds pretty simple to me. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/55 "2011-12-19T07:56:00Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Atheists really interest me mainly because of their total lack of tolerance for those that have faith. It is like it really bothers them to no end that someone can believe in something they can’t. Why was it necessary for you to come into this discussion trying to “convince” or prove that a God doesn’t exist? How about you don’t believe in a God and let those that do discuss it. Sounds pretty simple to me. That’s not true of the majority of atheists. I’m an atheist and I have no problem discussing religion with a believer and respecting his faith. The problem is that the most obnoxious atheists and the most obnoxious believers call the most attention to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/56 "2011-12-19T08:34:14Z")
Take religion out of the picture for a moment. If there was a thread called ‘Could Superman rip off his own head?’ (and there was), it would be threadshitting to post there to announce that the question is stupid or unanswerable _because Superman is a fictional character_ - it’s an irrelevant nitpick. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/57 "2011-12-19T09:15:05Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > As the lovely Jules Feiffer once said, “paraphrasing” Martin Luther (not King Jr, the churchy one): “If Christ died for our sins, dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them?” 😃 Jules Feiffer I do not know from a big hole in the ground, but he, you and I alike would all have to be pretty amazing if we’d never managed to commit our share _without_ needing to try. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/58 "2011-12-19T09:25:36Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > It’s false, like all religions are. > > Any hypothetical having a false premise, can have any consequent as a result. Come on, man - I’m an atheist too, but we can play with the premise. Do you object to threads with Star Trek hypos as well? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/59 "2011-12-19T10:19:42Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > The OP assumes Heaven exists. I’m saying he’s wrong. How is my post not appropriate? > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > According to Christian theology, that is - **answers along the lines of “no, because Heaven doesn’t exist” won’t be particularly useful**._[emphasis mine]_ NOW do you see it? ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/60 "2011-12-19T10:25:40Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Atheists really interest me mainly because of their total lack of tolerance for those that have faith. I have a proposition for you. I’ll give you ten dollars for every atheist who protested against the new mosque near ground zero, or even [the one in Tennessee](http://www.ksdk.com/news/national/story.aspx?storyid=207447&catid=28), if you give me one dollar for every Christian who did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460.md?page=4)