# I'm an evil bastard. Can I get into Heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460 "2011-12-16T22:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/81 "2011-12-21T04:14:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’ll assume you didn’t see my note, but this is going to be your last reminder about doing this. I didn’t see it. I’ll stop posting on this thread. Thanks for your patience. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/82 "2011-12-21T05:17:11Z")
A related question on the “faith alone” position. As I understand it, one of the main arguments against the “faith and works” position is that if works can get you inot Heaven, then human beings control access to Heaven. The idea is that if the rule is you get into Heaven by not breaking any commandments (to give an example of works) then a human being could choose to not break any commandments and thereby force his way into Heaven. Some people dispute this possibility because they say it makes people more powerful than God. Their argument is that God alone controls entry into Heaven and he can choose to let you enter or not and nothing you do can influence his position. So they say the rule is faith alone - you believe in God and he lets you into Heaven. But here’s my objection. Isn’t belief in God essentially a work? You choose to believe in God and acknowlege him as your Savior. But if you do this, aren’t you back to the situation that you’re forcing your way into Heaven? Or can God choose to not accept your belief? Can a person sincerely and devoutly believe in God but have God decide not to save that person? This still declares God holds supreme power of mankind but it runs counter to most Christian doctrine I’m aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/83 "2011-12-21T14:58:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But here’s my objection. Isn’t belief in God essentially a work? You choose to believe in God and acknowlege him as your Savior. But if you do this, aren’t you back to the situation that you’re forcing your way into Heaven? > > Or can God choose to not accept your belief? Can a person sincerely and devoutly believe in God but have God decide not to save that person? This still declares God holds supreme power of mankind but it runs counter to most Christian doctrine I’m aware of. Again, you’ll get a diffent answer depending on what Christian tradition - and which Christian - you ask. But to answer your first question about whether belief is a work, most would point you to Ephesians chapter 2:8-9 : "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— **and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God** — not by works, so that no one can boast. " In other words, one standard answer (and there are others) is that faith in God is itself a gift of grace from God, and not a product of our own will or striving. As for your second question, I can’t think of any theology I’ve ever read that supposes that God would reject sincere faith. However, ultra-Calvinists would say that God only chooses certain people to receive fath (“the elect”), and has pre-destined some to be faithful and some not to be. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/84 "2011-12-21T16:41:12Z")
So if I lack faith (and I do) it’s because God chose not to give me that faith. There’s no point in any Christian trying to preach to me because I can’t choose to believe in God. What’s the point of witnessing then? Is it a form of stealth bragging - “God picked me and he didn’t pick you”? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/85 "2011-12-21T16:51:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So if I lack faith (and I do) it’s because God chose not to give me that faith. There’s no point in any Christian trying to preach to me because I can’t choose to believe in God. What’s the point of witnessing then? Is it a form of stealth bragging - “God picked me and he didn’t pick you”? As I said, that’s only one interpretation. Calvinists are an influential stream of thought in Christianity but they are far from the only one. And I think they would say that although you are already predestined to be saved or not, Jesus still commands them to be witnesses to Him. For all they know you are predestined to be saved and they are the one God will use to do it. Personally I lean more toward Christian universalism myself. The Bible says that God’s will is to draw all people to Himself, and I believe that His ultimate will cannot be thwarted. His grace, as I said earlier in the thread, is ultimately irresistable, in this age or the next. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/86 "2011-12-21T16:59:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But here’s my objection. Isn’t belief in God essentially a work? Arguably not, since you can’t choose what to believe. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/87 "2011-12-21T17:03:20Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Arguably not, since you can’t choose what to believe. Except that faith requires us to continue believing in things we have really accepted. It’s actually quite easy to get by without faith, but a hot-blooded atheist has more than most people. Those without faith are really quite wishy-washy creatures, unable to make up their minds. It’s not that they don’t believe in God, but that their belief is completely contingent on the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/88 "2011-12-21T19:15:25Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Except that faith requires us to continue believing in things we have really accepted. It’s actually quite easy to get by without faith, What does it mean to “get by without faith?” Does believing in things we have really accepted require faith in your view? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/89 "2011-12-21T19:33:56Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Except that faith requires us to continue believing in things we have really accepted. It’s actually quite easy to get by without faith, but a hot-blooded atheist has more than most people. Those without faith are really quite wishy-washy creatures, unable to make up their minds. It’s not that they don’t believe in God, but that their belief is completely contingent on the moment. I don’t see how my lack of faith in Jesus is any different than your lack of faith in Allah. We both have Gods we don’t believe in. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/90 "2011-12-21T19:42:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t see how my lack of faith in Jesus is any different than your lack of faith in Allah. We both have Gods we don’t believe in. You see, he already has faith in _something_, whereas you have to constantly struggle to continue to not believe. Or something like that. Anyway, back to the OP, apparently the short answer is “No, with an if” and the longer answer is “yes, with a but.” I too find it perplexing that such a seemingly fundamental tenet to a religion (“How can I be saved?”) doesn’t have a clear cut answer. But, what do I know? I spend all my time not collecting stamps. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/91 "2011-12-21T20:05:37Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Anyway, back to the OP, apparently the short answer is “No, with an if” and the longer answer is “yes, with a but.” I too find it perplexing that such a seemingly fundamental tenet to a religion (“How can I be saved?”) doesn’t have a clear cut answer. But, what do I know? I spend all my time not collecting stamps. You’re ignoring the unqualified “yes” that I’ve offered twice. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/92 "2011-12-21T20:23:22Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > You’re ignoring the unqualified “yes” that I’ve offered twice. I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you spoke for all of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/93 "2011-12-21T20:41:28Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you spoke for all of Christianity. Of course not, no one does. But you implied the answer was a “no, if” with a “yes, but.” That’s one school of thought. “Yes, period” is an equally valid answer with centuries of theological support behind it as well. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/94 "2011-12-21T20:46:17Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Of course not, no one does. But you implied the answer was a “no, if” with a “yes, but.” That’s one school of thought. “Yes, period” is an equally valid answer with centuries of theological support behind it as well. Gotcha. My reply was a quote from Reverend Lovejoy of the Simpsons. I think my point (as tongue-in-cheek as it was) stands – No, if you follow certain Christian thinkers. Yes, but not if you follow these other Christian thinkers. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/95 "2011-12-21T21:45:43Z")
I was raised as a mainline American Protestant, and as I understand it would hinge upon whether or not the evil bastard would change IF he could. Because the Christian God is all knowing, he would know what the hypothetical bastard would do if he was miraculously healed. If he would go back to his evil ways he wouldn’t get into Heaven. If he would try to undo all the harm he’s done and make the world a better place he would get in. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/96 "2011-12-22T05:44:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So if I lack faith (and I do) it’s because God chose not to give me that faith. There’s no point in any Christian trying to preach to me because I can’t choose to believe in God. What’s the point of witnessing then? Is it a form of stealth bragging - “God picked me and he didn’t pick you”? Man can’t differentiate between the dammed and the not saved yet. This is why I said we should pray foe Ahmadinejad. I doubt Saul expected to turn Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/97 "2011-12-25T14:31:32Z")
You know who used to be an evil bastard? St. Paul. Before he met Jesus on the road to Damascus, he was Saul, a genuine badass. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/98 "2011-12-25T16:09:33Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > Man can’t differentiate between the dammed and the not saved yet. This is why I said we should pray foe Ahmadinejad. I doubt Saul expected to turn Christian. Saul was visited by [del]the Ghost Of Christmas past[/del]Jesus himself-the rest of us schmucks have to rely on _blind_ faith that contradicts known science if we want to go that route. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/99 "2011-12-25T17:55:06Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > Man can’t differentiate between the dammed and the not saved yet. This is why I said we should pray foe Ahmadinejad. I doubt Saul expected to turn Christian. But that’s not the point I was making. If salvation is through God’s Grace alone, then there’s no point in trying to convert anyone. Nobody on this earth can save anyone. Only God can do that. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/100 "2011-12-25T18:28:52Z")
Ah, but God makes use of witnesses at times. We are certainly expected to witness. But no, it doesn’t make much difference until God is ready for it. I have often wondered how Saul’s friends took his conversion. There must have been those that were shocked. In a Bible study group I once compared it to if Doctor Jim showing up with a copper bracelet. He assured me it wasn’t going to happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460.md?page=6)