# I'm an evil bastard. Can I get into Heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460 "2011-12-16T22:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![UFC\_Is\_Sux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/46a35a/32.png) [@UFC\_Is\_Sux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UFC_Is_Sux)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/101 "2011-12-25T18:35:07Z")
It all depends on which adherent to a particular sect of Christianity you ask. Some are going to tell you that Adolf Hitler himself is in Heaven right now because he asked for God’s forgiveness right before he blew his own head off in that bunker back in 1945. Some are going to tell you that only white obscenely rich Republicans will make it because they once gave a quarter to a homeless guy and that’s what God wants. And some are going to tell you that nobody goes to Heaven right away; some have to hang around in Purgatory for an eon or so to watch filmstrips and have self-criticism sessions before they loaded up the truck and they moved to Beverlyyyy. And my opinion? I don’t have one because you said that you wouldn’t find it “particularly useful”. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/102 "2011-12-25T19:01:51Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo;14601887If salvation is through God’s Grace alone, then there’s no point in trying to convert anyone. Nobody on this earth can save anyone. Only God can do that.[/QUOTE] God works through people. We are His hands and feet, His eyes, ears, and mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/103 "2011-12-27T17:35:22Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > God works through people. We are His hands and feet, His eyes, ears, and mouth. But that runs into the issue of human actions compelling God to do something - essentially saying humans are more powerful than God. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/104 "2011-12-27T17:41:05Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > God works through people. We are His hands and feet, His eyes, ears, and mouth. So how did he get anything done before we came along? Was his previous method of operation not working? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/105 "2011-12-27T17:49:56Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/106 "2011-12-27T18:00:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But that runs into the issue of human actions compelling God to do something - essentially saying humans are more powerful than God. No, it’s the other way around. The hands and feet of God do not move of their own accord, rather they require the Holy Spirit to animate them. Only spirit-filled people can be part Christ’s body here on Earth. We partake of His body & blood, which makes us His body. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/107 "2011-12-27T18:05:03Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > No, it’s the other way around. The hands and feet of God do not move of their own accord, rather they require the Holy Spirit to animate them. Only spirit-filled people can be part Christ’s body here on Earth. We partake of His body & blood, which makes us His body. Sort of like when Satan possesses people to do his bidding. Are there any ceremonies that rid someone of this holy possession? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/108 "2011-12-28T17:12:58Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > No, it’s the other way around. The hands and feet of God do not move of their own accord, rather they require the Holy Spirit to animate them. Only spirit-filled people can be part Christ’s body here on Earth. We partake of His body & blood, which makes us His body. Are you saying there’s no free will? It’s God moving people around? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/109 "2011-12-28T17:17:33Z")
Do you know what else has to be invited in, but once in can manipulate you to do its bidding? A vampire! ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/110 "2011-12-28T18:03:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you saying there’s no free will? It’s God moving people around? When they are filled with the Holy Spirit, yes! 🙂 I enjoy dialoguing with you. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/111 "2011-12-28T22:25:02Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > When they are filled with the Holy Spirit, yes! So non-believers have free will but becoming a Christian turns you into a mindless puppet? Are you sure you haven’t got the Bible confused with _Invasion of the Body Snatchers_? ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/112 "2011-12-29T00:12:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So non-believers have free will but becoming a Christian turns you into a mindless puppet? Oh, no. Far from it! Mindless puppets cannot love God. They can’t serve God or give glory to God. Everyone has free-will regardless of what they believe. > [@](#): > > Are you sure you haven’t got the Bible confused with _Invasion of the Body Snatchers_? Pretty sure. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/113 "2011-12-29T00:39:12Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Pretty sure. I’m pretty sure that you are unclear on the definition of “free will”, then. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/114 "2011-12-29T13:52:02Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Oh, no. Far from it! Mindless puppets cannot love God. They can’t serve God or give glory to God. Everyone has free-will regardless of what they believe. I can see the possibility of having a free mind in the situation you describe. But you said that God controlled the believer’s body. So what I’m seeing is a person trapped inside their body with some outside entity (God) controlling it. Experiencing this would certainly make me believe in God and fear him but I don’t see how it would make me love him. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/115 "2011-12-29T14:01:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m pretty sure that you are unclear on the definition of “free will”, then. Maybe that’s because I choose to be. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/116 "2011-12-29T14:09:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I can see the possibility of having a free mind in the situation you describe. But you said that God controlled the believer’s body. So what I’m seeing is a person trapped inside their body with some outside entity (God) controlling it. Experiencing this would certainly make me believe in God and fear him but I don’t see how it would make me love him. No, it’s not like demonic possession or the presence of an alter ego overpowering the main personality. People ask to be controlled by God in such a way that they are still who they are and not like a marionette with someone yanking its strings. Maybe instead of “control” we should say “inspire” or “lead.” The Prayer of St. Patrick says, _“Make me a channel of Your peace.”_ By asking to be a channel of God’s peace, a person is asking God to express His peace through them, through who they already are. Does that help? ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/117 "2011-12-29T14:32:26Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m an evil bastard. Can I get into Heaven? As an evil bastard, you might be able to sweet-talk your way out of a murder-rap or having someone discover your body-stash, but you won’t get past St. Peter and the Pearly Gates. An evil bastard may be good at manipulating people, like Ted Bundy was with getting women to voluntarily climb into his van, but there is no manipulating God. God is not mocked and he is not sweet-talked, either. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/118 "2011-12-29T15:10:56Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > there is no manipulating God. God is not mocked and he is not sweet-talked, either. Not sweet-talked??? Geez, half the Pentateuch is God’s meticulous instructions for fawning over him. How to prepare the sacrifices so they smell right, how many curtain loops for the tabernacle, what kind of underwear the priests should wear, etc. And the whole theme of the Hebrew Bible is if you slack off in your adoration for a second, all kinds of wrath rains on you. Reminds me of my ex-wife. Also see Genesis 18:23ff, or the book of Job, for examples of manipulation. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/119 "2011-12-29T15:14:30Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Not sweet-talked??? Geez, half the Pentateuch is God’s meticulous instructions for fawning over him. How to prepare the sacrifices so they smell right, how many curtain loops for the tabernacle, what kind of underwear the priests should wear, etc. > > Also see Genesis 18:23ff, or the book of Job, for examples of manipulation. Have you read the New Testament? We don’t do sacrifices any more. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460/120 "2011-12-29T15:23:20Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Have you read the New Testament? We don’t do sacrifices any more. So tithing is out of fashion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-an-evil-bastard-can-i-get-into-heaven/606460.md?page=7)