# I'm beginning to doubt the intelligence of John Kerry, and I am pissed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 10, 2004, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575 "2004-03-10T23:37:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/21 "2004-03-11T21:00:22Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > If I were competing on Policy Search, honeybunch, I’d make sure to be ready for it, not merely responding casually to a bunch of whiny clods who missed the point of the thread in an hysterical bid to upbraid me over one tiny bit of hyperbole. > > More blah, blah, blah. This has been done to death, and I’m not interested in another debate. > > Been there, done that, enjoy your futile, pointless objections. Enjoy sticking your fingers in your ears. Pathetic ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/22 "2004-03-11T23:24:38Z")
**World Eater** , **'luce** , I like you guys, really. But damn . . . shrill, much? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/23 "2004-03-12T00:07:46Z")
> [@](#): > > If Kerry were to make a firm statement of conscience opposing capital punishment, he would get creamed. That’s simply a fact. … Unless it’s a Republican that does it, in which case, that “simple fact” in Lucy’s head gets twisted and warped into “EEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL!!!” As for the OP… The first quote simply pointed out the prevailing belief at the time, that had BEEN prevailing for a decade. Kerry was simply as unaware of the lack of evidence as the six billion other people on the planet. The second quote, I believe, is just use of pretty normal hyperbole, sentiments shared by thousands of rational, intelligent people. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/24 "2004-03-12T00:11:16Z")
> [@](#): > > If you believe this, you are far from reality. Wow, World. I’m, like, totally in awe of how, y’know, totally jaded you are, and stuff. Dude, it’s like, you’re TOTALLY hip, man! Stick it to the 'stablishment! Jesus. Buncha fogies in the Chicken Little party trying desperately to reinvent the counter-culture. To quote someone in this thread… “Pathetic.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/25 "2004-03-12T00:25:25Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > … Unless it’s a Republican that does it, in which case, that “simple fact” in Lucy’s head gets twisted and warped into “EEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL!!!” Not quite sure what you mean here, **Spoofy** , your statements get harder to parse when you hyperventilate. That _is_ what the big paper bag is for, yes? But if you mean I would not respond positively if a Republican took a conscientious stand against capital punishment…well, point one out to me, that I may applaud. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/26 "2004-03-12T01:49:49Z")
I agree with pretty much everything **Ogre** says. Getting rid of Saddam Hussein was enough of a reason to invade Iraq in and of itself. I don’t like that we acted unilaterally, but I’m also not too thrilled that we needed to act unilaterally. How can we expect dictators like Hussein to follow international law if we’re not prepared to punish them for violating it? I also feel that this is a totally seperate issue from the way that GWB handled the marketing of the war. The fact that I, personally, didn’t need the argument about WMDs to support the invasion doesn’t mean it was okay for Bush to lie about their exsistence to convince other people. So, as a pro-war liberal, I get to have my cake and eat it, too. A murderous dictator was deposed and a formerly oppressed nation has a shot at democracy and freedom, and I still get to abuse the Prez for getting us into the conflict in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/27 "2004-03-12T02:03:34Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Jesus. Both **Princhester** and **World Eater** quite evidently have serious difficulties with reading comprehension. Allow me to point out for the _third time_ in a single thread that I never thought WMD’s were a significant issue. Don’t believe it? Search my username. Point it out as often as you like, red herrings are cheap and I’m not paying. While you’re at it, you might like to point out to me where I’ve ever even mentioned this issue. I’m not sure I’m the one with difficulties with reading comprehension. > [@](#): > > And **Princhester** , my attitude is this concerning your “vocal minority,” and always has been: > > “Blah blah blah.” And my point has always been that such a minority existed, a fact you now appear to be acknowledging. If you’d just done that in the first place, I woudn’t have needed to correct you. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/28 "2004-03-12T02:14:56Z")
> [@](#): > > While you’re at it, you might like to point out to me where I’ve ever even mentioned this issue. I’m not sure I’m the one with difficulties with reading comprehension. The fact that you bothered to hijack a thread to shrilly correct my harmless hyperbole is implication enough. Plus, I’m familiar with your posting history and attitudes about the war. Such inference was hardly unreasonable. Don’t be disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/29 "2004-03-12T02:41:40Z")
Pathetic. I simply pointed out one particular thing you’d said which was demonstrably false. Three lines. All you had to do was say: “Yes, OK, not _everybody_ thought Saddam had WMD”. That would have ended it. But no, you had to launch into a diatribe 5 paragraphs long, calling me names, launching red herrings, raising straw men and making excuses about your falsehood just being hyperbole. I post once more, making it clear that I was making one point and one point only. Did you end it there? No, what we get is another four paragraphs attacking my reading comprehension and once more raising pathetic red herrings. I confirm once again (for the third time) that I was making one point and one point only and finally the penny drops and you now come up with some blather which amounts to “It’s your fault that I read things into your posts that weren’t there”. And I’m the one that’s being “shrill” and “hijacking” this thread? Yeah, right. Fuckwit. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/30 "2004-03-12T02:52:23Z")
And all you had to do, **Princhester** , was not be a gigantic cock when you pointed out **Ogre** ’s hyperbole. Apparently, that was a little too tough for you, wasn’t it? Still, it’s a good thing you did point it out. We didn’t want anyone to read **Ogre** ’s post and assume from it that there hadn’t been any debate on the issue. I know that I, for one, thought, “Wow, everyone? That’s really weird, because I thought there were a lot of arguments about it! I guess I was wrong!” Thank God you were there to clear that up for all of us who are completely literal and totally naive. It’s good that there are shining lights like you out there in the big inky blackness. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/31 "2004-03-12T03:18:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And all you had to do, **Princhester** , was not be a gigantic cock when you pointed out **Ogre** ’s hyperbole. Apparently, that was a little too tough for you, wasn’t it? Ogre makes a statement that was (a) wrong (b) something that it has been pointed out over and over in various debates to be wrong (c) offensive in that it treats a significant number of people as “nobody” (d) something that Ogre knew or should have known was offensive to such people since that also had been pointed out over and over. I called Ogre on this in very ascerbic terms. This makes **me** a gigantic cock? If so, I’m proud to be a gigantic cock, frankly. > [@](#): > > Thank God you were there to clear that up for all of us who are completely literal and totally naive. It’s good that there are shining lights like you out there in the big inky blackness. No problem, any time. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/32 "2004-03-12T03:20:15Z")
“He was a dick, so I was justified in being a bigger dick.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/33 "2004-03-12T03:20:33Z")
Yes, **Princhester** , you hijacked the thread. This is empirically demonstrable. The thread was completely, to the sentence, about Kerry’s comments regarding WMDs and Osama bin Laden’s hypothetical capture and trial, until you chose to take umbrage at my one little bit of hyperbole and launch the thread off in the direction of my “inexcusable misjudgement.” That there is a vocal minority of war supporters is no secret. Such a fact needed no independent verification from me. What you really wanted was an admission that “my” misjudgement was inexcusable. I then explained that it was not “my” misjudgement at all, that I never cared one way or another and was in fact mystified why Bush and Co. hung their hats on it. To claim that you wanted (completely unnecessary) confirmation from me that, yes, there are war protesters out there, without mentioning your misdirected value judgement in the very next sentence is extraordinarily dishonest. So, to clear my good name with you, **Princhester** , hearken: **There exist those out there who never thought Iraq had WMD’s.** I do not admit, however, that I suffered from any “misjudgement,” nor that my beliefs about the war were or are inexcusable. What I find inexcusable is the insanely pedantic way you decided to single-handedly hijack a largely unrelated thread to attempt to make an impotent (and yes, shrill) point about Iraqi WMD’s. Moron. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/34 "2004-03-12T03:22:41Z")
Sorry, the above should obviously read, “That there is a vocal minority of war **protesters** is no secret.” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/35 "2004-03-12T03:37:05Z")
And look, while we’re at it, lets clear up the issue of whether Ogre was actually engaging in “one tiny bit of hyperbole”. This is what Ogre said: > [@ogre](#): > > I understand Kerry’s statements perfectly. In the WMD statement, he’s essentially stating that **he had no way of knowing that the WMD was a political snow-job** , and that he chose to have faith in the US leadership that they knew what they were talking about. Now, I’m still of the opinion that the world will be a much happier place without Saddam Hussein and that we had reason to get rid of him even without raising the spectre of WMD’s. I know everybody thought Iraqi WMD’s, given Hussein’s history, were an absolute clinch at the time. [my emphasis] Now let’s try rewriting that without the “one tiny bit of hyperbole”: > [@](#): > > I understand Kerry’s statements perfectly. In the WMD statement, he’s essentially stating that **he had no way of knowing that the WMD was a political snow-job** , and that he chose to have faith in the US leadership that they knew what they were talking about. Now, I’m still of the opinion that the world will be a much happier place without Saddam Hussein and that we had reason to get rid of him even without raising the spectre of WMD’s. I know everybody **except a small but significant and vocal minority of people in the US, the UK and Australia, notable dissenters from the intelligence community, and the UN weapons inspectors** thought Iraqi WMD’s, given Hussein’s history, were an absolute clinch at the time. You see, Ogre wasn’t engaging in a tiny bit of hyperbole, he was stating a falsehood, without which his position was untenable. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/36 "2004-03-12T03:45:02Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Ogre makes a statement that was (a) wrong It wasn’t inaccurate, as the context made it completely obvious that he was merely saying it was a commonplace, and excusable, assumption. > [@](#): > > (b) something that it has been pointed out over and over in various debates to be wrong In other words, everyone already knew about it. You know, we all noticed the enormous debate over the war in Iraq. We’re all aware that there were gigantic protests worldwide. We all heard _all_ about it. **Ogre** wan’t trying to cover up the exsistence of people who didn’t think Iraq had WMD. It’s a given fact of the debate. _It doesn’t need to be restated in every single thread on the topic._ The fact that there is a debate in the first place is proof that everyone knows there are two sides to the issue. > [@](#): > > (c) offensive in that it treats a significant number of people as “nobody” You’re insane. > [@](#): > > (d) something that Ogre knew or should have known was offensive to such people since that also had been pointed out over and over. ibid. > [@](#): > > I called Ogre on this in very ascerbic terms. This makes **me** a gigantic cock? Yes, it does. You were the first one to go aggressive. If the point was so incredibly important that you had to make it (and that’s an eyerolling proposition right there) you could have said, “Come now, **Ogre** , old chap, you know very well that there was a large segment of the population that didn’t think the WMDs exsisted or were a viable excuse for invasion. I know you didn’t mean to discount them, but it’s important that their exsistence is acknowledged.” Instead, you were a prick about it, and then you started whining when **Ogre** quite rightly took issue with your tone. You took the first swing, you don’t get to bitch when the other guy swings back. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/37 "2004-03-12T03:46:31Z")
I was not on a hijack at any point. Your falsehood was used by you to support Kerry. Calling you on that falsehood was therefore precisely on point, and not a hijack. You, on the other hand, were the one who kept trying to drag the debate off into the reasons you supported for the war, a topic I never went into because that had been done to death in other debates. And what is even more risible is the fact that you kept attempting to suggest that it was **me** who was trying to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/38 "2004-03-12T03:47:28Z")
Actually, **Princhester** , you’re putting words in my mouth. I would not have said “ **except a small but significant and vocal minority of people in the US, the UK and Australia, notable dissenters from the intelligence community, and the UN weapons inspectors**.” Given the extremely casual nature of the comment, I would more than likely have said, had it occurred to me that some pedantic ass like yourself would get in a stir about it, “I know everybody (well, not everybody, but most) thought Iraqi WMD’s, given Hussein’s history, were an absolute clinch at the time.” Would this have staved off your bizarre attacks? My position on the issue of the thread remains no less tenable. Kerry was, more than likely, simply stating that he had faith that if the White House said it had reason to believe Iraq had WMDs, then said reason existed. Not hard. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/39 "2004-03-12T03:58:52Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > Wow, World. I’m, like, totally in awe of how, y’know, totally jaded you are, and stuff. Dude, it’s like, you’re TOTALLY hip, man! Stick it to the 'stablishment! > > Jesus. Buncha fogies in the Chicken Little party trying desperately to reinvent the counter-culture. To quote someone in this thread… “Pathetic.” Umm, what the fuck are you talking about? > [@](#): > > WMD’s were secondary, we destroyed the Ba’ath Party, Saddam is gone, and the insurgency will take care of itself. Yay for us and yay for the new Iraqi constitution. Iraq will straighten out under its own elected leadership, and there’s hope that it will become a leader in the Middle East as a Muslim democracy. Lovely. I considered this prediction to be laughable, YMMV. Let’s compare outcomes in a few years. M’kay brother? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575/40 "2004-03-12T04:00:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It wasn’t inaccurate, as the context made it completely obvious that he was merely saying it was a commonplace, and excusable, assumption. Bullshit. He said Kerry “had **no way** of knowing”. The only way that Ogre could support that particular bullshit statement was by making a further bullshit statement, namely that “everybody” thought there were WMDs. This thread is about Kerry’s judgment. Kerry was not in a position where he had no way of knowing, no clues, no dissenting voices about WMD to listen to. Kerry had a way of knowing, he just got it wrong. > [@](#): > > … you could have said, “Come now, **Ogre** , old chap, you know very well that there was a large segment of the population that didn’t think the WMDs existed or were a viable excuse for invasion. I know you didn’t mean to discount them, but it’s important that their existence is acknowledged.” This is bullshit as stated above. Ogre’s argument relied upon discounting the dissenting voices that Kerry could have but did not listen to. Further, if you’d care to read his posts, Ogre admits precisely that he _does_ discount that segment of the population. His words were, if I recall correctly, “blah, blah blah”. You ought to read the posts of those you are defending more carefully. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-beginning-to-doubt-the-intelligence-of-john-kerry-and-i-am-pissed/233575.md?page=3)