# I'm buying a gun **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 17, 2007, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533 "2007-04-17T22:45:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![enigm4tic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@enigm4tic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigm4tic)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/61 "2007-04-18T05:12:55Z")
read through most of the thread: I’m thinking of buying a gun, training with it, etc. also But then, I’ve been planning to do this for some time, have shot before, etc. Personally, I’m in the camp where I’m of the opinion that I know there’s almost no chance I’ll actually end up using it. Ya know what, that’s fine. There’s also almost no chance that I’ll get some particular rare disease or other, but I’m glad there’s a cure for it. My feeling is A) I enjoy shooting at ranges, and will probably own multiple guns B) I really don’t want to be in that ONE off-chance situation where I’ll go… aww CRAP I wish I had a gun. It’s analagous to any other “oh crap this emergency might happen” safety device. You probably won’t ever use it in an emergency, but man, if there is an emergency and it does save your life, it’s justified. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/62 "2007-04-18T05:41:51Z")
[QUOTE=cerberus] 4. The shooter at VPI was a permanent resident/foreign national (S. Korea): non-citizens cannot generally be issued carry permits, and I seriously doubt that the shooter could even legally own a firearm. [/QUOTE] I believe you are incorrect. First, in terms of general eligibility to purchase a firearm, the [Virginia State Police website](http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_PurchaseEligibility.shtm) says: > [@](#): > > A person who answers “yes” to any of the below questions may be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm pursuant to state and/or federal law. > > \ > > 1. Are you an alien illegally in the United States? > > 2. Are you a nonimmigrant alien? A nonimmigrant alien is prohibited from receiving a firearm unless he or she falls within an exception to the nonimmigrant alien prohibition (e.g., hunting license/permit; waiver). > > 3. Are you a person who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced your citizenship? If the VT shooter was, as you say, a legal permanent resident, there’s nothing here that prevents him from having a firearm. According to [this page](http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_VFTP.shtm), the identification required for _purchasing_ a firearm in Viriginia includes a primary and a secondary form of ID. The primary ID must be a state-issued photo ID, like a driver’s license, and the secondary ID must be something like a lease or utility bill or vehicle registration that shows the same address as the primary ID. Also: > [@](#): > > Effective January 1, 2004, DMV will not issue an original license, permit, or ID card to any applicant who has not presented evidence that he/she is a citizen of the United States, a legal permanent resident, or an authorized temporary resident alien of the United States. In the instance of temporary residence, the DMV document will only be valid during the period of authorized stay in the United States. Again, if the shooter was a legal permanent resident, and was a resident of Virginia, he wouldn’t have been prevented from getting a firearm by any of the rules so far discussed. [This page](http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm) discusses the requirements for getting a Concealed Handgun Permit in Virginia. > [@](#): > > Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he or she resides, or if he is a member of the United States armed forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun. The first step in this process is to demonstrate competence in the use of the firearm by completing one of a number of firearm training courses. Among those people not qualified to obtain a Concealed Handgun Permit is: > [@](#): > > An alien other than an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States. And the [Concealed Handgun Permit Application](http://www.vsp.state.va.us/downloads/SP-248_revised_07-1-2006.pdf) (pdf) specifically says, in the section where you are asked to fill in your Place of Birth: > [@](#): > > (YOU MUST BE A UNITED STATES CITIZEN OR HAVE LAWFUL PERMANENT RESIDENCE IN THE UNITED STATES) Again, if this guy was, as you say, a permanent resident of the United States, i can find nothing in all of this to suggest that he would be ineligible to purchase or carry a gun, or to obtain a Concealed Handgun Permit in Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/63 "2007-04-18T10:17:43Z")
[QUOTE=1010011010] Also, for all this “YOU MUST BE READY TO KILL! KILL!!” advice… Even if you are mentally prepared to accept being party to a homicide, the intent of defensive shooting it to _STOP_ the attacker. Not to kill them. [/QUOTE] No hyperbolic capitalization, just a simple, true statement: you shouldn’t carry a gun for protection unless you’re prepared to kill a human being. A gun’s a crappy tool for the purpose of simply stopping somebody, because it’s designed to kill people. In fact, in the highly unlikely scenario envisioned by the OP (being suddenly confronted by an insane mass murderer), the only reasonable way to immediately end the threat would be to unload your weapon into the middle of the attacker’s body. Possibly I’m missing something. Exactly how would you plan to “stop” somebody in that situation using a gun? Unlike in the movies, people don’t automatically do what you tell them when you point a gun at them. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/64 "2007-04-18T10:44:05Z")
> [@](#): > > **cerebrus** said: > Almost always off-limits are certain public events, bars, banks, government property(schools, parks, stadia, military bases, public mass transit,…) Pennsylvania specifically prohibits concealed carry in airports, courthouses, and federal buildings. Schools are a very gray area, since the relevant statute says that it’s a crime to carry at a primary or secondary school, but also says “Defense.–It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.” The state AG has refused to clarify the term ‘other lawful purpose’, or to state whether it includes lawful concealed carry for self defense. (PA Title 18-912 (c)) > [@](#): > > Additionally, private establishments can in many cases also “ban” carry on their premises, at least those by customers or clients. In which case, the worst that they can do is make me leave if they know I’m carrying. > [@](#): > > The shooter at VPI was a permanent resident/foreign national (S. Korea): non-citizens cannot generally be issued carry permits, and I seriously doubt that the shooter could even legally own a firearm. Virginia allows permanent resident aliens to own firearms. I have not seen any mention as to whether this individual had a license to conceal. By the way, fear is not a good reason to buy a gun. It’s a decision that should be made rationally, not emotionally. I would advise **Soapbox Monkey** to wait a month. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/65 "2007-04-18T11:35:59Z")
This thread is hysterical. Horrific massacre with guns … poster shows sudden interest in guns … earnest advice on purchasing and safe handling of guns. That’s classic. You guys crack me up. ---
**Author:** ![feppytweed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/feppytweed/32/4280_2.png) [@feppytweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/feppytweed)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/66 "2007-04-18T12:43:31Z")
[QUOTE=antechinus] This thread is hysterical. Horrific massacre with guns … poster shows sudden interest in guns … earnest advice on purchasing and safe handling of guns. That’s classic. You guys crack me up. [/QUOTE] Well it’s better than just debating the ethics of having a gun and letting the OP go purchase a weapon uninformed. By telling him about what to do if (or when) he/she buys a gun, they can at least be prepared. Plus, knowledge is power! ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/67 "2007-04-18T13:45:13Z")
I’ve had my LTC for about five years now, and of course I’ve owned my pistol for the duration. I don’t always carry it. As a matter of fact, I actually carry pretty infrequently - my handgun spends most of it’s time safely tucked away, out of reach and out of sight. I was brought up in a family that accepted firearms as a normal part of life. Not “gun nuts”, mind you. I lived in rural Wisconsin as a lad and was taught to hunt small game with bow and rifle. My father (and his father, and etc) hunted deer when the season came, we had a firing range and .22 rifles at Boy Scout Camp. My family never advocated gun ownership or gun control. Owning firearms was about as natural (and normal) as owning a vacuum cleaner. Firearms safety was _always_ stressed (I won’t even play paintball. Sounds silly, right? Not to me). I say: If you want your LTC, good for you. Be safe, be careful and have fun (I have a _great_ time whenever I go to the range). ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/68 "2007-04-18T13:57:36Z")
Posted by Glee > [@](#): > > If lots of people in a school (or anywhere else) have a gun, there will be more shootings. I went to school at Texas Tech; the dorms there had (have?) a room where dorm residents were required to store their guns. Said guns could be checked out at any time for any or no reason and I don’t recall ever hearing of a shooting on campus. Of course, that was many years ago for whatever that is worth. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/69 "2007-04-18T14:07:21Z")
[QUOTE=enigm4tic] There’s also almost no chance that I’ll get some particular rare disease or other, but I’m glad there’s a cure for it. [/QUOTE] Your reasoning about why to carry a gun appears to rest on the assumption that doing so is a “cure” for incidents such as the VT shootings. The whole point of the contrary position is that it is not. I think we simply must get over the idea that a gun settles anything. Using a gun to hunt is one thing. Using a gun for alleged protection merely leads from one set of highly improbably conditions to another. The first is that there will be a madman’s gun attack, you will be present, and your gun will be accesible in time. The second is that sometime there will be an accident; that sometime you gun will be stolen; that even if an shooting incident does occur you will shoot the wrong person or persons, etc. There is only one possible “good” scenario. That is that there will be an attack in your presence. There are multiple bad scenarios and even though each of them is improbably, in combination the bad become much more likely than the good. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/70 "2007-04-18T14:07:26Z")
Isn’t anyone concerned about the armed student arriving on the scene just a few seconds late, having heard gunfire, and shoots the perp who’s pointing a gun, three laying dead on the ground. He shoots the gunman, only to discover, no he’s shot the first guy on the scene who actually shot the gunman. Now imagine half the people in that schoolroom had been armed. Can’t you imagine a scenario where when the gunplay came instead of calmer heads prevailing, one person shoots gunman, another dies in crossfire, and mayhem ensues, many more die. This scares me far, far worse. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/71 "2007-04-18T14:16:53Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] Possibly I’m missing something. Exactly how would you plan to “stop” somebody in that situation using a gun? Unlike in the movies, people don’t automatically do what you tell them when you point a gun at them. [/QUOTE] Maybe not, but in the movies, every lone dispenser of justice has perfect aim and a clear sight line to the bad guy such that the LDOJ will fire a perfect hit into the bad guy’s chest and send BG immediately to Hades. Of course the OP will be just like every movieland LDOJ because life is exactly the way it is in the movies :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Figaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@Figaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Figaro)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/72 "2007-04-18T15:38:05Z")
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey] [snip]Oh sure, we’re going to take these kinds of threats seriously from now on. For 2 years. Maybe 3. Then we won’t. Then there will be another shooting. Lather, rinse, repeat. I know you are simply trying to make a point about how miniscule the chances are that I would ever be in such a situation. But the fact of the matter is that the possibility DOES exist…[/snip] [/QUOTE] I have no horse in the “should you buy a gun” race, but IMO you are looking for something that simply does not exist: a way to ensure your own safety beyond all doubt. If a deranged person decides to end your life some day, you will probably be powerless to stop them, regardless of whether or not you decide to arm yourself. There are two kinds of risks: those that you should consider and try to mitigate as part of your daily life (i.e. traffic accidents & the wearing of seatbelts), and those that are so fundamentally out of your control (and unlikely) that you cannot worry about them and continue to live a healthy existence (i.e. a deranged person spraying a public place you happen to be in with bullets.) ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/73 "2007-04-18T17:08:19Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Maybe not, but in the movies, every lone dispenser of justice has perfect aim and a clear sight line to the bad guy such that the LDOJ will fire a perfect hit into the bad guy’s chest and send BG immediately to Hades. Of course the OP will be just like every movieland LDOJ because life is exactly the way it is in the movies :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] That’s true. Why, just yesterday I… Wait a minute… That wasn’t me. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/74 "2007-04-18T17:45:43Z")
OT- but how much does the average gun cost? ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/75 "2007-04-18T18:05:37Z")
[QUOTE=Caridwen] OT- but how much does the average gun cost? [/QUOTE] I think a $200 to $300 is a fair estimate of average cost. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/76 "2007-04-18T18:07:42Z")
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey] I have to do some research on that. Any suggestions? [/QUOTE] If you are purchasing for concealed carry, you’ll want to look at the mid-size and compact revolvers and autoloaders. Full-size handguns are easier to shoot, but they are significantly heavier and bulkier. This makes them harder to conceal and less comfortable for day-long wear. The gun you leave behind because it is inconvenient or uncomfortable to carry is no use to you. You will want a piece that uses a cartridge powerful enough to have a good chance of actually stopping your opponent w/o necessity of shooting him many times. Most experts recommend the .380 acp as the minimum in autoloaders and the .38 special as the minimum in a revolver. Rather than recommend some specific piece to you, because I’d only be giving you my preference, let me tell you this: Smith and Wesson, Glock, HK, Springfield Armory, Keltec, and Taurus all make compact and mid-size autoloaders in appropriate calibers and various price-points. There are other makes available too, but most gunstores and rental ranges will have examples of most of these. Smith and Wesson and Taurus make revolvers in appropriate size and power. Others do as well, but these are the top two and will most commonly be encountered new. In autoloaders, you’ll have to choose among pieces that have steel, alloy, or polymer frames. All have advantages and disadvantages. Revolvers will give you a choice of steel or alloy, each with advantages and disadvantages. Don’t choose a piece on how cool it looks. What is more important is that you are able to shoot it accurately and comfortably. Going shooting with friends who own a variety of handguns is one way to sample them. Rental ranges, if you have no gun-owning friends, is another. Get some training from somebody qualified to actually train you. The NRA offers classes that are geared towards neos who want to carry for self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/77 "2007-04-18T18:55:36Z")
Just a little anecdote to show how things can go wrong when guns are involved. This happened a couple of years ago in my area. A guy walks into a convenience store to discover an armed robber holding up the clerk. There’s a struggle and the robber ends up down on the sidewalk, outside the store, w/ the guy standing over him holding the gun. In the meanwhile the clerk has called 911 and there was a police car nearby. All this happens very quickly. The cop stops a ways from the two men and, standing behind his car, orders the guy to drop the gun. The guy tries to yell back, explaining that he’s not the robber. Apparently in doing so he waves the gun around and the cop, not understanding the situation and perceiving a threat, shoots the guy dead. So much for being a hero. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/78 "2007-04-18T19:28:43Z")
Is your decision to buy a gun a fear-based decision, **Soapbox Monkey**? Those are the worst kind of decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Fastidiots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fastidiots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fastidiots)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/79 "2007-04-18T19:30:04Z")
My younger brother (19 years old) owns several firearms, a .280, pair of .22’s, 30-6, pair of 12 gauges, or some combination thereof. He’s been hunting most of his teenage years, and he had to attend a two week training course, sit an exam, and have an interview with the provincial office in charge of handing out the liscences. The worst “senseless killing” incident Alberta has had in my memory was a Taber shooting, involving one highschool student, a .22 rifle, and one death. The city of Calgary has somewhere between 20-30 murders a year (stabbings, beatings, shootings combined). The average homicide rate in Alberta is 1.9 per 100,000 I believe (2000). The national average being 1.8 (related to Alberta’s high rate of hunting and gun ownership? Dunno). The American average in 2000 was 5.5 (205% worse than Canada), the highest being Loisiana 12.5 (594% more than Canada), and Virginia coming in at 5.7. A total of five states finished better than us Canuckers, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Iowa, and North Dakota. Are homicides related to gun ownership? You be the judge. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533/80 "2007-04-18T19:57:02Z")
[QUOTE=Winston Smith] I think a $200 to $300 is a fair estimate of average cost. [/QUOTE] Only in the potmetal/used range. $400-$1000 is the rough range for a service-quality handgun from a reputable manufacturer. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-buying-a-gun/400533.md?page=5)