# I'm calling bullshit on wine story **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 4, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675 "2014-11-04T21:49:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/81 "2014-11-06T20:57:13Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Even worse, that identical bottle of wine retails for $1000 and this restaurant marks it up 275% For a bottle of wine at a restaurant, percentage-wise, 200-300% of retail is pretty standard. I’ve never ever seen it less than that. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/82 "2014-11-06T21:07:16Z")
> [@Waterman](#): > > Just because it was old doesn’t necessarily mean it was either good or great. The vintage (year the grapes were harvested from) would have a lot to do with the quality along with the cellaring (storage) conditions and the fact that not all Bordeaux (or any other location for that matter) wines are made for aging. > > In the case of the OP, we are talking about a young 2011 Screaming Eagle Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon (75% Cab Sav) that lists at retail from $1800 to $2400 according to several wine websites. There were good wines, there’s no doubt about that, the relative was a connoiseur, being from a family of winemakers as I said. Wait, I see what you mean I think. The bottles weren’t remaining bottles from the wineyard, but his personal cellar (I guess it included bottles from the vineyard, wouldn’t know, really). Besides, people did find them great. _I_ didn’t . I’m not sure why you’re doubting that some people, like me, can’t tell apart a good from an average wine. I can certainly feel a difference in taste, but it doesn’t make one wine _better_ than the other. Just different. Give me a pretty ordinary sweet white wine, and it will immediately qualify as “better” for me than probably the most expensive red wine you can think of. Of course, I might be wrong, and maybe that as the extreme end I would find that the 4 000 or 40 000 bottle tastes marvelous, but I don’t advise you to waste that much money on me. ETA : the cellaring probably dropped massively in quality after my friend got them. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/83 "2014-11-06T21:27:47Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > I’m reminded of the infamous [Nieman-Marcus](http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/fooddrink/a/cookie_recipe.htm) cookie recipe. Yep, that what I thought of too. I was IM’d the link to the wine story earlier today, and I immediately messaged my friend with a link about the fake Nieman Marcus story. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/84 "2014-11-06T21:50:19Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > So I’m supposed to believe what? That this guy knew the real price but figured he could scam a $3750 bottle of wine by claiming ignorance afterwards? Seriously? If it was a business trip, perhaps the only people he is really trying to convince are the ones who settle the travel voucher. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/85 "2014-11-06T22:12:43Z")
I think its much more probable that the waitress simply made a mistake in saying thirty seven fifty. Any rational person would understand that to be $37.50. I quote earlier the wine columnist that had formerly owned several restaurants. He said his restaurant had simply absorbed the cost in a similar misunderstanding with a customer. Ultimately the restaurant should have **made certain** the customer understood he was receiving a bottle of wine that was nearly 4 thousand dollars. The 2nd most expensive wine on their menu. I find it extremely unlikely the customer was pulling a scam. He had a table full of friends and spent several hundred dollars on the meal. I can’t imagine anything more embarrassing then getting presented with this huge bill that you can’t pay. No one would do that in front of their friends. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/86 "2014-11-06T23:22:54Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I think its much more probable that the waitress simply made a mistake in saying thirty seven fifty. Any rational person would understand that to be $37.50. > > Ultimately the restaurant should have **made certain** the customer understood he was receiving a bottle of wine that was nearly 4 thousand dollars. The 2nd most expensive wine on their menu. > > I find it extremely unlikely the customer was pulling a scam. He had a table full of friends and spent several hundred dollars on the meal. I can’t imagine anything more embarrassing then getting presented with this huge bill that you can’t pay. No one would do that in front of their friends. [Wine list](http://www.bobbyflaysteak.com/file/2210/BFS_Wine%20(7).pdf)for what I’m sure is the restaurant in question, [Bobby Flay Steak](http://www.bobbyflaysteak.com/menus.php) at the Borgata Hotel/Casino in Atlantic City. There isn’t a full-sized bottle of [Edit] wine for less than $40 bucks on the entire list. $60 if we’re just talking American Cab. Seriously, look at the list. Most of the red wines there have three digits in the price. Granted, Eagle’s an outlier (and the Harlan’s supposed to be a better bottle at half the price), but a casino restaurant has to have some high end for the douchebag/big winner/goombah demographic. Usually, IME, the markup gets less obscene the higher up the list you go, but Veblen governs the situation for goods like these, I think. Napa mailing list wines have weird economics anyway; I haven’t looked at auction prices for wines like Harlan, or S. Eagle, or Sine Qua Non, etc… in a while, but 3750 USD/btl doesn’t strike me as utterly out of line, considering she makes, what, 200 cases of the first growth? (Wiki says 400-750, but I think they’re including the second wine in that total. Which is also listed on the Flay wine list. [Edit, again, and Jean Phillips/Heidi Barrett isn’t running the show anymore, so strike out ‘she’][) Those 200 cases, or 2400 bottles, have to go to everyone in the world with a big wallet and a desire to impress, be they Russian oligarchs, Chinese land barons, Hollywood types, etc… See Burgundy for similar prices. As to your last point, I’ve seen similar scammy, scummy behavior working in the hotel industry. Some people will try to get over on you no matter how much money they’re ostensibly worth. Especially if the guy picking it isn’t going to be the one on the hook for the bill if the scam doesn’t work out. And if you get too inquisitive as a server, “Are you sure SIR, really SURE? You do know this is a nearly $4 thousand dollar bottle of wine?”, then they get butt-hurt because you don’t think they can afford it. I usually when going out, point to a wine on the list and say to the server, “I’m looking for something in this range,” etc… Anyway, my vote is scam, and I think the solution reached by both parties was mutually beneficial. If the food’s anything like Flay’s TV cooking, they should’ve been drinking margaritas/Negra Modelos anyway. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/87 "2014-11-07T00:04:56Z")
I understand no business wants to be scammed. I guess there are people that would pull a stunt like this. Its hard to say for certain what the guy was thinking. The restaurant should have just written it off as the cost of doing business. Stuff happens. This wine could have gotten knocked off a shelf and broken in the stockroom. Call a meeting of all wait staff and make it policy that they always say either hundred or thousands when telling customers prices.\* Sir, this wine is 3 hundred and 75 dollars. \* or\* Sir, this wine is 1 thousand 400 hundred and 50 dollars.\* It may sound a little formal and stiff, but it eliminates confusion. Skilled wait staff could say it in a friendly way and still be precise. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/88 "2014-11-07T00:15:19Z")
That Wine retails between $1200 to 1500. The restaurant’s wholesale cost may have been under a $1000. It would be a significant write off. But the bad publicity has cost them a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/89 "2014-11-07T01:56:50Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > [Wine list](http://www.bobbyflaysteak.com/file/2210/BFS_Wine%20(7).pdf)for what I’m sure is the restaurant in question, [Bobby Flay Steak](http://www.bobbyflaysteak.com/menus.php) at the Borgata Hotel/Casino in Atlantic City. There isn’t a full-sized bottle of [Edit] wine for less than $40 bucks on the entire list. $60 if we’re just talking American Cab. Seriously, look at the list. Most of the red wines there have three digits in the price. And none have cents, ergo “Thirty-Seven Fifty” should only mean “Thirty-Seven Dollars and Fifty Cents” to someone not paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/90 "2014-11-07T02:25:00Z")
> [@](#): > > John Foy, a wine consultant TIL that a “wine consultant” is apparently a thing you can be. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/91 "2014-11-07T02:40:52Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > That Wine retails between $1200 to 1500. The restaurant’s wholesale cost may have been under a $1000. It would be a significant write off. But the bad publicity has cost them a lot more. If that’s true then the manager “settling” for $2000 would still be ripping off the patron. I’d tell him to shove the empty bottle up his ass and take me to court. He would end up with $37.50 and even worse publicity. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/92 "2014-11-07T02:46:00Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > And none have cents, ergo “Thirty-Seven Fifty” should only mean “Thirty-Seven Dollars and Fifty Cents” to someone not paying attention. Or someone who couldn’t actually see the prices. The reason the diner asked the waitress the price in the first place was that he did not have his glasses on and could not read the price for himself. If he couldn’t see the prices, it’s pretty likely that he would also have been unable the discern the presence or absence of a decimal point. And if this was the case, he would have had no way of knowing (a) that almost ALL the wines on the list were hundreds of dollars, or (b) that none of the wine prices included cents. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/93 "2014-11-07T03:37:20Z")
I think the preponderance of evidence favors the customer. Waitresses shouldn’t be recommending $3750 bottles of wine to anybody: that’s the sommelier’s job IMHO. The OP picked the story up from AOL. It was weak and there was reason for suspicion. But the details in the [NJ.com](http://NJ.com) story, while not definitive, support the customer. I find it hard to believe that a guy would embarrass himself in front of 10 associates, or conspire with 10 associates to imbibe an expensive bottle of wine with a name like Screaming Eagle. For those who would do such a thing, I doubt they would go to the press afterwards. For those who would do such a thing and are attention seekers, I doubt they would go to [NJ.com](http://NJ.com). For those who would do such a thing and are attention seekers and would go to [NJ.com](http://NJ.com), I doubt whether they would be able to come up with 2 corroborating accounts (wife and person sitting next to him). It’s almost as if he simply wanted to make a consumer complaint to the local press. For those who are just scammers, I would think they would have a longer paper trail, one that might have come to light by now (maybe). Recall that the restaurant hasn’t reported anything incriminating about the guy: they just say they followed procedures. But they refuse to show the video record to the reporter. I do think there are reasonable doubts about the customer’s story. Maybe the guy does have a longer paper trail: I haven’t done a search on him. Maybe he likes dicking with his friends on a lark. Most important, we may have the underlying facts wrong: it’s not like anybody has been subpoenaed. etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/94 "2014-11-07T04:02:40Z")
I’m on the side of the restaurant. Anyplace you go where an entree is in the $30-$50 range, $37.50 is dirt dirt cheap for a bottle of wine, especially if a recommendation was asked for. This generally means to me “something nice” - not the house red. The customer may well have genuinely misunderstood, but is his fault - he should be more careful what he orders. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/95 "2014-11-07T04:27:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I try it every time I eat out and every time they tell me the same thing, “Sir, Burger King doesn’t serve alcoholic beverages.” Did you want to supersize it for just “twenty-five” more? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/96 "2014-11-07T04:30:28Z")
Here’s a scenario I can find plausible. Lentini, who doesn’t know much about wine, asks the waitress for a recommendation. Wanting to impress his friends, he asks her what their best bottle of wine is. It’s reasonable to assume there’s a relationship between price and quality. Besides being one of the most expensive wine the restaurant sells, Screaming Eagle is probably also their best. So the waitress points to the Screaming Eagle on the wine list. The price is printed right next to the wine, so the waitress naturally assumes Lentini can see that it’s a $3750 bottle. (Here’s the [wine list](http://www.bobbyflaysteak.com/file/2210/BFS_Wine%20(7).pdf) and you can see the prices are clearly given.) So when Lentini asks about the price, the waitress is thinking he already can see the price and is just verifying it. So she confirms that the price is indeed “thirty seven fifty” just like it says. And Lentini goes ahead and orders it. A waitress isn’t going to embarrass somebody by asking something like “Are you sure that’s the wine you want? It’s really expensive.” She showed him the price and verified it discretely. When the wine is brought out, the sommelier does confirm that this was the wine Lentini had ordered and he again says yes. So the wine is served and put on the bill. So it’s possible that this was an honest misunderstanding. The waitress assumed that Lentini could see what the price was because she pointed to it on the wine list. Lentini, however, was not wearing his glasses so he couldn’t read what she was pointing at. So I don’t think the restaurant was trying to bamboozle Lentini. While a $3750 bottle of wine seems outrageous, we should keep in mind the cost for the rest of the meal was almost a thousand dollars. And I’m willing to concede that Lentini probably wasn’t trying to scam the restaurant. (One thing I’ve learned is that Lentini wasn’t the host of the meal. He was a guest.) ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/97 "2014-11-07T05:16:40Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Anyone here think they could immediately tell the difference between a $40 bottle and a $4,000 bottle. I seriously don’t think I could. Can anyone? > **[Does All Wine Taste the Same?](https://www.newyorker.com/tech/frontal-cortex/does-all-wine-taste-the-same)** > > Another American wine region has performed far better than expected in a blind tasting against the finest French châteaus. > [@](#): > > The Judgment of Princeton didn’t quite end with a Jersey victory—a French wine was on top in both the red and white categories—but, in terms of the reassurance for those with valuable wine collections, it might as well have. Clos des Mouches only narrowly beat out Unionville Single Vineyard and two other Jersey whites, while Château Mouton Rothschild and Haut-Brion topped Heritage’s BDX. The wines from New Jersey cost, on average, about five per cent as much as their French counterparts. > … > The perceptual ambiguity of wine helps explain why contextual influences—say, the look of a label, or the price tag on the bottle—can profoundly influence expert judgment. This was nicely demonstrated in a mischievous 2001 experiment led by Frédéric Brochet at the University of Bordeaux. In one test, Brochet included fifty-four4 wine experts and asked them to give their impressions of what looked like two glasses of red and white wine. The wines were actually the same white wine, one of which had been tinted red with food coloring. But that didn’t stop the experts from describing the “red” wine in language typically used to describe red wines. One expert said that it was “jammy,”5 while another enjoyed its “crushed red fruit.” > > Another test that Brochet conducted was even more damning. He took a middling Bordeaux and served it in two different bottles. One bottle bore the label of a fancy grand cru, the other of an ordinary vin de table. Although they were being served the exact same wine, the experts gave the bottles nearly opposite descriptions. The grand cru was summarized as being “agreeable,” “woody,” “complex,” “balanced,” and “rounded,” while the most popular adjectives for the vin de table included “weak,” “short,” “light,” “flat,” and “faulty.” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/98 "2014-11-07T06:00:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Lentini, who doesn’t know much about wine, asks the waitress for a recommendation. Wanting to impress his friends, he asks her what their best bottle of wine is. There’s no evidence that he asked what their best bottle of wine was. (If he did -and again we don’t have any depositions- I’d seriously consider flipping sides.) From [the decent article](http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2014/11/bamboozled_what_happens_when_a_3750_bottle_of_wine_really_costs_3750.html): [INDENT]The host of the dinner – the guy who would be paying the bill – told Lentini to pick a bottle, Lentini said. “I asked the waitress if she could recommend something decent because I don’t have experience with wine,” Lentini said. “She pointed to a bottle on the menu. I didn’t have my glasses. I asked how much and she said, ‘Thirty-seven fifty.’” The drinkers at the table agreed to the price and they ordered, Lentini said. [/INDENT] I have wondered about proper restaurant policy though. Arguably, the sommelier should verify the price with the patron. But jeez, if you truly want to order a bottle that costs over $1000, you might not want them to rub it in. I see from the quote though that there is no claim that the waitress was aware of Lentini’s poor eyesight. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/99 "2014-11-07T11:29:33Z")
If it’s true that the all the drinkers at the table agreed to the price then that argues in favor of the explanation that it was a misunderstanding. It also supports the claim that the waitress wasn’t clear. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675/100 "2014-11-07T15:03:54Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Or someone who couldn’t actually see the prices. Should’ve put his glasses on. Surely they were with him, otherwise how’d he read the menu and order his food? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-calling-bullshit-on-wine-story/703675.md?page=6)