# I'm done with my state's GOP. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2005, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573 "2005-06-09T08:05:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/161 "2005-06-11T23:30:26Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, you can’t have it both ways. Either it extends as far as your lungs, or it extends as far as the regulators will allow. No need to get all technical. 😉 Greater precision, one variant: Externalities justify governmental intervention. Optimal intervention should be determined by benefit cost analysis. Benefit cost analysis will often recommend mitigation, rather than prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/162 "2005-06-11T23:49:17Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Your same logic can be applied to OSHA regulations, mine safety regulations, etc. IMHO, these early (and mid) 20th century reforms advanced the commonwealth. They certainly save lives. I think it’s important to point out that smoking, unlike the hazards regulated by OSHA, is a personal choice that many employees participate in, involving a common product that’s sold legally at thousands of stores and heavily taxed. Many restaurant workers smoke during their breaks at work and their free time; very few miners, if any, have their own unsafe mineshafts in their back yards that they work in as a hobby. In other words, even if secondhand smoke were as dangerous as firsthand smoke (which it isn’t), it’d still be a risk that millions of people see fit to subject themselves to on their own time, so why should they be prevented from working around people who do it and vice versa? I’m a nonsmoker and a liberal, but this seems like a perfect place to let the free market work its magic. The argument that employees are forced to work in smoky environments is bunk, IME, because I pass nonsmoking businesses every day. [Here’s a partial list](http://www.secondhandsmokesyou.com/restaurants/search_results.php?county=Spokane) of smoke-free restaurants in Spokane (yes, “Asian Restaurant” is a real name). When there’s demand for nonsmoking restaurants, the supply catches up. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/163 "2005-06-12T01:07:13Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Golly, duffer, seeing as I don’t know you, it’s unlikely that I can name ONE SINGLE individual in your life that Hey ass-fuck. YOU stated > [@Measure](#): > > Newsflash: We are bothered, duffer. We’re just cutting you some slack (as is polite, I should add, unless the nonsmoker suffers from asthma or the like). You’re the one that took it upon yourself to speak for all non-smokers in that predicament. Don’t fucking weasel out now. You’re busted. Keep using those wide brushes around here. It’s gonna bite you in the ass at some point. And just cuz you’re new, let me christen you: Fuckin douchebag ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/164 "2005-06-12T01:11:07Z")
By the way, **MfM** , care to counter the argument that a biker bar may not need your pansy-ass around to save them from the dreaded Smoke of Doom[sup]TM[/sup]? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/165 "2005-06-12T01:26:01Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I support them going non-smoking as well. IF THAT"S WHAT THE OWNER DECIDES! Dude, you’re dumb. How many times have I said that in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/166 "2005-06-12T01:26:29Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Hey ass-fuck. YOU stated > > ``` > [Newsflash: We are bothered, duffer. We're just cutting you some slack (as is polite, I should add, unless the nonsmoker suffers from asthma or the like).] > > ``` > > You’re the one that took it upon yourself to speak for all non-smokers in that predicament. Don’t fucking weasel out now. You’re busted. Keep using those wide brushes around here. It’s gonna bite you in the ass at some point. > And just cuz you’re new, let me christen you: Fuckin douchebag As I stated earlier, I was merely noting my presumably universal physiological responses to the exercise of your addiction, **duffer**. I am disappointed (but, alas, no longer surprised) that you decided not to reply to the clarification posted above. It speaks poorly of your intellectual and moral courage. It is unclear to me, why you think I’m “new”, given my post count. The last characterization, however, seems consistent with the behavior that you have exhibited in this thread. I would recommend that you calm down a little. (If I see a more coherent biker argument, I will consider a response). ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/167 "2005-06-12T01:38:33Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > I think it’s important to point out that smoking, unlike the hazards regulated by OSHA, is a personal choice that many employees participate in, involving a common product that’s sold legally at thousands of stores and heavily taxed. Many restaurant workers smoke during their breaks at work and their free time; very few miners, if any, have their own unsafe mineshafts in their back yards that they work in as a hobby. Slightly different argument. I was saying that both restaurant workers and nineteenth century miners can and do make decisions to avoid unsafe workplaces. > [@](#): > > In other words, even if secondhand smoke were as dangerous as firsthand smoke (which it isn’t), it’d still be a risk that millions of people see fit to subject themselves to on their own time, so why should they be prevented from working around people who do it and vice versa? If it could be shown that nonsmoking restaurant workers face a substantially higher exposure to secondhand smoke at work than they do in ordinary life, your argument would not apply. > [@](#): > > I’m a nonsmoker and a liberal, but this seems like a perfect place to let the free market work its magic. The argument that employees are forced to work in smoky environments is bunk, IME, because I pass nonsmoking businesses every day. [Here’s a partial list](http://www.secondhandsmokesyou.com/restaurants/search_results.php?county=Spokane) of smoke-free restaurants in Spokane (yes, “Asian Restaurant” is a real name). When there’s demand for nonsmoking restaurants, the supply catches up. Well, your list doesn’t show the share of nonsmoking places, which is what’s relevant… Just to be clear, I think California has gone too far on this. So, I’m sympathetic with the tone of your post, **Mr. 2001**. You may be interested in [this article](http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:cEfLP6LiSZMJ:www.spokesmanreview.com/local/story.asp%3FID%3D55767+spokane+smoking&hl=en) which shows the current state of the debate in Spokane. As it happens, I lean towards the industry-supported view, which mandates walls and ventillation in areas with smoking sections. At least when compared with a blanket prohibition. The latter would probably save lives, of course, but that’s not the sole legitimate consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/168 "2005-06-12T02:00:59Z")
One more thing. I think **Mr. 2001** has torpedoed point number 2 that I posted above [2. In practice, restaurants may not want to piss off their smoking patrons, without a governmental scapegoat to point at.]. IMHO, #2 may have applied in, say, 1980; it does not seem to apply in Spokane today. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/169 "2005-06-12T02:57:53Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Well, your list doesn’t show the share of nonsmoking places, which is what’s relevant… According to Spokane Regional Health District, there are over 400 smoke-free restaurants in Spokane County. The county’s population is around 430,000, so I think that number is reasonable, considering that it doesn’t include restaurants with separate smoking sections. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/170 "2005-06-12T09:20:15Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Avoiding the temptation to refer to the “hard of reading”, I’ll refer you back to the study I linked to earlier, demonstrating that contrary to the doomsday claims of some in the bar/restaurant industry, smoking bans have not destroyed business. People are still flocking to the bars.This sets a new standard for idiocy. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that people are _perfectly free_ to open a non-smoking bar if they so choose. Why is this insufficient for you? Please address the point. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/171 "2005-06-12T14:41:10Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Since you speak for Yookeroo, perhaps you can tell us why he made reference specifically to places _outside_ where smoking is banned, if he meant what you say he meant. > [@Yookeroo](#): > > Here in California we’ve banned smoking in most indoor (and some outdoor) places that are open to the public. What has been the biggest downside? A minority of people have deal with a very minor inconvenience whenever they want to feed their addiction. I think it’s pretty clear he meant what I suggested he meant. And this removes any doubt: > [@Yookeroo](#): > > I guess the 5 minutes spent outside is a great hardship. It is kind of fun watching the libertarian knees jerk though (how dare they regulate a business to make it safer for employees!). Not a big price to pay so that bartenders/servers etc. can have a safer workplace. I’d say he’s doing a fine job expressing himself. Unlike certain daft posters who twist the words of others and introduce hyperbolic nonsense into threads to get attention. > [@Liberal](#): > > Who can say what’s next? Who would have predicted that liberals would be establishing classes of people, some of whom deserve discrimination? Do you trivialize all addictions and all preventable ill-health sufferers, or just smokers? Do you find your strawmen are useful in keeping crows out of the garden? We make help available to addicts in our society, but we also require that they make an effort to understand the negative consequences of their actions to themselves and others and take steps to overcome them. That is not “trivializing” addiction, but common sense and widespread private and public policy. And that is what smoking restrictions amount to as well. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/172 "2005-06-12T15:52:46Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I think it’s pretty clear he meant what I suggested he meant. Then what does he need you for? > [@](#): > > And this removes any doubt: Actually, that bit was a complaint about a caricature of libertarians. Tell him that the bit I addressed was the portrait he painted of addicts who “have [to] deal with a very minor inconvenience whenever they want to feed their addiction” — hedonists who complain about minutiae whenever they have a desire to get high. It isn’t that addicts _want_ to get their fix. It is that they _must_ do so. That’s why it is called an addiction. Also, tell him that it is an hypocrisy to demand that they go outside on the one hand, and on the other hand support a ban on outside smoking. > [@](#): > > I’d say he’s doing a fine job expressing himself. Then, once again, why the hell are _you_ here? > [@](#): > > We make help available to addicts in our society, but we also require that they make an effort to understand the negative consequences of their actions to themselves and others and take steps to overcome them. Then y’all are clueless dumbfucks. What’s the difference between y’all and the puritanical Moralistas of the right wing, putting your noses in other people’s business, and telling them how to run their lives? “If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life.” — Henry David Thoreau, _Walden_ ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/173 "2005-06-12T20:33:03Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Then what does he need you for? He doesn’t. But posters often defend others who views are being distorted and who are being unfairly attacked. And you have been here long enough to know this full well. > [@](#): > > Also, tell him that it is an hypocrisy to demand that they go outside on the one hand, and on the other hand support a ban on outside smoking. Your mock outrage about supporting another poster is getting a bit overdone, don’t you think? Besides, I don’t recall any pro-ordinance posters in this thread telling smokers to go outside and also demanding bans on outdoor smoking. > [@](#): > > Then, once again, why the hell are _you_ here? Tell **Liberal** that he is behaving like an ass. Then go tell the bears to stop taking dumps in the woods and use litter boxes instead. > [@](#): > > What’s the difference between y’all and the puritanical Moralistas of the right wing, putting your noses in other people’s business…? Smoke up my environment, and you are putting your business in my nose. Think about that logically for a bit, and come on back with a sensible argument when you’re through melting down, Henry David. Y’all. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/174 "2005-06-12T20:49:06Z")
**Jackmannii** has pretty much nailed what I was saying. Stepping outside for a few minutes seems to be some sort of persecution for smokers, but in reality it’s a small inconvenience. And very often you get to do some bonding with fellow addicts! “Smokers can just find some non-smoking place to work.” First, this may not actually be the case. Second, it’s so easy to give the whole workforce access to more jobs by banning smoking in the workplace. At almost no cost to anyone. Isn’t this exactly what a good government does? This is beneficial to a majority (actually, a cleaner worlplace is probably beneficial to everyone) with a very tiny price to pay. How is this not a good thing? Smokers have been getting away with making the world a dirtier place for so long that they think every effort to stop them from doing this is akin to being anally raped by a cactus. Talk about a sense of entitlement. That said, I would vehemently oppose an outright prohibition on smoking (not that there is any danger of this). I don’t care what your drug of choice is as long as I’m not forced to share it. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/175 "2005-06-12T20:58:36Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > He doesn’t. But posters often defend others who views are being distorted and who are being unfairly attacked. Thanks 🙂 > [@Jackmannii](#): > > And you have been here long enough to know this full well.Your mock outrage about supporting another poster is getting a bit overdone, don’t you think? Besides, I don’t recall any pro-ordinance posters in this thread telling smokers to go outside and also demanding bans on outdoor smoking. I’d b e totally against a general ban on outdoor smoking. There are situations where I’m happy there’s a ban, say in a stadium where getting away from the smoke is impossible without having to leave. Or on the beach where smokers can’t seem to avoid trashing the place (I guess the sand remind them too much of ashtrays). But in places where it’s easy enought to avoid the smoke, smokers should be allowed to have at it. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/176 "2005-06-12T21:01:08Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Smoke up my environment, and you are putting your business in my nose. Would this be the “your” environment that belongs to private business owners? Goodness, we _do_ have a mightily inflated sense of propriety, don’t we? So, about that question of mine (and that of half the other ban opponents in this thread) - were you planning on answering it, or can I expect another non sequitur? > [@Yookeroo](#): > > “Smokers can just find some non-smoking place to work.” First, this may not actually be the case. Please illustrate such a case, and explain why it is so common, or so important, that it is necessary to ban the entire country from smoking indoors to prevent it from occurring. This mythical person being forced to work in smoky bars has been repeatedly invoked, and yet … who are they? Why are they only able to work around smoke? Are they frustrated firefighters? > [@](#): > > I don’t care what your drug of choice is as long as I’m not forced to share it. Who’s forcing you? There are _lots of smoke-free places to go_. Why should the entire country be forced into adjusting every indoor premise to your liking? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/177 "2005-06-12T21:05:18Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > According to Spokane Regional Health District, there are over 400 smoke-free restaurants in Spokane County. The county’s population is around 430,000, so I think that number is reasonable, considering that it doesn’t include restaurants with separate smoking sections. Thanks. I’m curious though (really). What share of restaurants are coded red, yellow and green? Do any of the shares show a trend over, say, the past year? Or have the shares been roughly stable since the color-code system was introduced? (Is the color code system voluntary? Or is it in another city altogether?) Feel free to give a WAG (or even ignore these questions if you don’t want to bother). ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/178 "2005-06-12T21:20:47Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > This has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that people are _perfectly free_ to open a non-smoking bar if they so choose. Why is this insufficient for you? Please address the point. **Dead Badger** I’ve addressed this point twice now. The arguments I’ve given have been neither extremely weak -nor particularly strong- as **Mr. 2001** and others will attest. But the point …has… …been… …addressed… ## See post 153 above, as well as the responses to it. Heck, you can even read your own latest post. My view: It is entirely legitimate for the government to regulate hazardous working conditions (and personally, I wish they would do more about carpal tunnel). The issue here turns on the extent to which secondhand smoke is actually hazardous. (The master’s take on the subject is here: [Does second-hand smoke really cause cancer?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000602.html). Quick summary: :dubious: ) That was as of 2000; an update might be interesting. I seem to recall an interesting study involving 4 year olds (who presumably have more sensitive resporatory systems). ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/179 "2005-06-12T21:22:47Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Thanks. I’m curious though (really). What share of restaurants are coded red, yellow and green? Do any of the shares show a trend over, say, the past year? Or have the shares been roughly stable since the color-code system was introduced? I don’t have answers to any of these, but I’ve contacted SRHD about it and I’ll let you know if they can help. Red signs seem pretty rare; I’ve only ever seen them on bars. > [@](#): > > (Is the color code system voluntary? Or is it in another city altogether?) Since 1997, the signs have been mandatory for all food and beverage establishments within the county. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573/180 "2005-06-12T21:39:05Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > Who’s forcing you? There are _lots of smoke-free places to go_. Why should the entire country be forced into adjusting every indoor premise to your liking? And, admittedly, here’s where I balk: it seems unreasonable to me for all public restaurants and bars to ban the habit (or at least reroute it towards the outdoors). My philosophy of government runs towards one of “Mutual accommodation”. Outright bans violate this. Existing bans in Delaware, California and Florida are highly convenient for nonsmokers like myself. But they seem overdone for the approximately 1/6 of the country that is addicted to nicotine. * * * On preview: **Mr 2001** : Thanks. Another general principle of government that I like is incrementalism. Mandating that restaurants make their policies easily discernable seems like a sensible idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-done-with-my-states-gop/307573.md?page=10)