# I'm entitled to my dating criteria, so back off! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591 "2003-09-04T20:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/41 "2003-09-05T14:56:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lezlers \* > \*\*Just thought of my Camero aversion. Every guy I’ve known that’s driven a Camero has generally been an asshole. I’ve turned down dates before upon finding out the guy drove a Camero. Too many bad Camero experiences. Make sense? Not really. Reasonable? Not hardly. My own personal bias that I’m entitled to? Yup, and I’m sticken to it. \*\* Actually I think this is an objective truth. Same goes for a Firebird. Double points for a Trans Am or IROC Camero. Bonus points awarded based on length of hair in the back of the mullet. > [@](#): > > If he were to participate in an experiment where he had to have sex with 10 men, blindfolded, rate the sex experience on a numerical scale… and then when the blindfold came off he later rated their dancing ability, he may be suprised at the results. Pass the sign up sheet this way, **Otto**. It’s for science afterall. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/42 "2003-09-05T15:23:16Z")
There used to just be a molehill here, where’d this mountain come from? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/43 "2003-09-05T15:40:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > That’s MY bloody opinion borne from years of experience in the field–nobody else gets a vote. Yes, but is your reported opinion valid even just for yourself? As this is a message board devoted to getting at the truth of the matter, unless you are reporting from a [sample size](http://www.kirkwood.edu/advance/handouts/envnatscifl2003.pdf) of 25 or more sex partners in which you’ve ascertained their inclination towards dancing, the duration of your dance and sexual experience is scientifically irrelevant. > [@](#): > > _link_ > For sound science, there should be a minimum sample size of 25. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/44 "2003-09-05T15:48:24Z")
IMO gay guys take themselves WAYYYY too seriously 😛 how many smilies do I need to put on that statement to get me out of the shit and show it was a joke? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/45 "2003-09-05T16:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Yikes! Not another opinion confused with facts argument, Gobear. I know I’m not exactly your favorite person, but bear with me a moment. Just to clear up a misconception, there is no reason for you not to be my favorite person. I don’t carry grudges from other threads and I feel absolutely no animus to you whatsoever. > [@](#): > > I am certain that you intended that statement as nothing more than an opinion, just as you state is was ‘in your opinion.’ > > But being an opinion does not close the door to any disagreement, and there are two problems with this one: > > 1. Your opinion results in what you call a ‘direct relationship’. It’s no surprise that someone might question if there is support for such a direct relationship. I believe you meant to say you have a personal preference, which is fine. But there really is no reason for anyone to question the support for such a relationship when I already stated the support for my statement. The misconception here is that people here are mistaking subjective experience for objective truth. I make no claims for statistical verification of my claims, nor do I expect my standards to apply to anyone but me–do we have some SI measurement for “good in bed” that stands up to objective scrutiny? > [@](#): > > 1. The sentence basically consists of “[common shortcoming], IMO, is directly related to [very unflattering description]. Again, someone is bound to question it when worded this way. If I used this same formula to state that teachers, IMO, suck in bed, we’d be seeing another pit thread pop up fairly quickly. Even though the OP said that he’s dated 5 teachers in a row and they always come home smelling of children and they are too tired to boink properly? Does your logical rigor mean that he must dismiss his direct experience? And the previous statement should read, "2) The sentence basically consists of “[common shortcoming], IMO, is directly related to [common shortcoming]. Being lousy in the sack is, luckily, a correctable flaw. (NOTE: My teacher comment was purely hypothetical. Anyone who says I attacked teachers is going to get an earful.) > [@](#): > > Yes, but is your reported opinion valid even just for yourself? As this is a message board devoted to getting at the truth of the matter, unless you are reporting from a sample size of 25 or more sex partners in which you’ve ascertained their inclination towards dancing, the duration of your dance and sexual experience is scientifically irrelevant. As I said in the thread that spawned this one, I _really_ enjoyed my 20s and 30s, so rest assured that I have a sample size well in excess of 25. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/46 "2003-09-05T16:48:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **The misconception here is that people here are mistaking subjective experience for objective truth. I make no claims for statistical verification of my claims, nor do I expect my standards to apply to anyone but me–do we have some SI measurement for “good in bed” that stands up to objective scrutiny?** So you’re basically saying, “It’s my opinion that bad dancers are terrible in bed, and even though it’s probably not true, I’m going to stick with it”? If so, that’s fine with me; I just want to clarify. Not trying to be snarky, but I think it’s high time somebody cut to the chase here. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/47 "2003-09-05T17:18:51Z")
On one hand, I see where Gobear is coming from. On the other hand, I think I know what camp he would be in if someone posted, “IMO, gay guys are too effeminate.” ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/48 "2003-09-05T17:39:46Z")
> [@](#): > > So you’re basically saying, “It’s my opinion that bad dancers are terrible in bed, and even though it’s probably not true, I’m going to stick with it”? If so, that’s fine with me; I just want to clarify. That’s not what I’m saying because I did not say “even though it’s probably not true.” What I’m saying is “Every time I’ve taken a bad dancer home, he’s been lousy in bed, so I’m thinking there’s probably a correlation.” What people here seem to be arguing is that one must never learn from experience. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, I think I know what camp he would be in if someone posted, “IMO, gay guys are too effeminate.” Well, my answer would be that gay men’s behavior is spread across a spectrum of behavior from butch to flaming, but even the nelliest of the flamers is not “too effeminate” because there is no objective standard to judge by. Were you right? ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/49 "2003-09-05T17:52:39Z")
gobear, you don’t need to explain to me why it is just an opinion. I already agreed that it was. What I was pointing out was that it was an easy statement to misunderstand. It’s not just one or two people, and it’s not just on one or two occasions. I dunno, there might just possibly be something here to consider working on. It’s up to you. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/50 "2003-09-05T18:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > Well, my answer would be that gay men’s behavior is spread across a spectrum of behavior from butch to flaming, but even the nelliest of the flamers is not “too effeminate” because there is no objective standard to judge by. > \*\* Why would you **need** to posit an “answer” to somebody’s “MOTHERFUCKING OPINION” (assuming it’s stated in CS etc…)? ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/51 "2003-09-05T18:36:06Z")
Let me make sure I’m clear on this, **gobear**. It’s okay for me to post: “What’s more, one’s username, IMO, is directly related to one’s sensitivity and temperament. If they call themselve gobear, they’re hypersensitive jackasses, that’s my motto.” Nobody should perceive that as an insult, even if it follows right on the heels of one of your posts. Because, you know, maybe everyone called gobear I’ve ever known has been a hypersensitive jackass. It should be just fine and dandy for me to post that, because it’s just my opinion. Good to know for future reference. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/52 "2003-09-05T18:46:38Z")
I agree with gobear, only not because of the “can’t dance/lousy in bed” thing. Dancing is a very important part of my life. To ME, there’s a very special bond between dance partners who are also lovers. One that I’d rather NOT do without. I agree with the overall sense of “don’t tell me my dating guidelines are ‘dumb’ etc” too. Drives me NUTS when other people decide FOR you that you’re “being too picky” or "you don’t really know what you want " (and what’s worse, THEY do) etc. Also, imho? Though I don’t agree with making it a sweeping blanket statement, and although I’m a heterosexual female imho, men who “can’t” (CAN’T, not WON’T, CAN’T) dance, in my experience (and the experiences of many of my friends and acquaintances) DO tend to be not nearly as good in bed as dancers. So, those of you who think you’re “too cool” to dance, hey? MAYBE you might change your tune? (pun intended :D). Because imho, there aren’t NEARLY enough men who are willing to dance. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/53 "2003-09-05T18:58:24Z")
I dunno, it has always been MHO that the men who dance the best are usually gay. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/54 "2003-09-05T19:13:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Waverly \* > \*\*gobear, you don’t need to explain to me why it is just an opinion. I already agreed that it was. What I was pointing out was that it was an easy statement to misunderstand. It’s not just one or two people, and it’s not just on one or two occasions. I dunno, there might just possibly be something here to consider working on. It’s up to you. \*\* Well, I have an idea of what to do because it looks like I have nothing to offer. Anytime I venture an opinion, I am immediately accused of making a sweeping generalization, as if the words "all and “every” appear in my post without my seeing them. > [@](#): > > Nobody should perceive that as an insult, even if it follows right on the heels of one of your posts. Because, you know, maybe everyone called gobear I’ve ever known has been a hypersensitive jackass. It should be just fine and dandy for me to post that, because it’s just my opinion. Ah, but you see I never said “everyone.” Go aread and read my posts, then cut and paste it where I said “Every bad dancer is always bad in bed.” In my experience, that tends to be so, but it is by no means a universal rule. Yet you and others persist in purposely misquoting me as making a blanket statement. If you wish to think of me as a hypersensitiver jackass, please do. The differnce between your childish parody and my post is that I gave a rationale–it seems to me that guys who are uncomfortable with their bodies are less fun than guys who know how to use their bodies–it’s also why I prefer athletic guys to nonathletic guys. But I’m sure it’s wrong to have preferences like that, too. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/55 "2003-09-05T19:27:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JustPlainBryan \* > \*\*For the record, I was offended by the remark, especially because it was apropo of nothing. It seemed to me like it was a back-handed insult meant to shut me up about not knowing how to dance. Further, I do not think that my wife’s attempt to defend me should be characterized as “misguided”, since more than one person saw the remark as being offensive. \*\* The thing is, imho, (and with some “expertise” since I actually TEACH dance), most people know how to dance. I’ve had very few students who actually could NOT dance. I think the “won’t” dance has a lot more to do with it than the “can’t” dance. Meaning that, perhaps those that _are_ into dancing might tend to be a bit more comfortable in their own skins and have “learned sexual talent” so to speak (pssssst, that was a “perhaps” a “maybe” and an “I think” NOT a "this is the way it is). Too many people ('specially men in my experience) are just “too cool” or too embarrassed to dance or to learn how. So many times those people adopt an easily offended attitude when it comes to dancing or what they see as them not being able to dance. One that’s not necessary really. It’s funny, it’s not that hard, and yet folks tend to make it out to be, and then feel cranky when they feel as if they’re being called on their perceived “inability” to do it. So, all you non-dancers, go find a nice dance instructor, and like they say on the nike commercials, JUST DO IT!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/56 "2003-09-05T19:57:26Z")
I’m glad we have a dance teacher among the doper ranks! I have a question, for **CanvasShoes**. Have your ever sucessfully taught a novice how to follow rhythm consistently (and I mean someone who had very little to no exposure to music as a child)? This is the part that is immensely difficult for me. I have no doubts that your students can learn the actual moves. I myself learned more than a few moves in swing dancing class. In that respect, perhaps, I am “in tune with my body”. It is matching that to music that is the problem. This is the part that is most frustrating to me, and to my partner who relies on me to be the lead (and who by the way has an innate sense of rhythm). Just when I think I have it, I lose the rhythm completely and have to start over again. Either that or I just have to count a beat in my head and not listen to the music at all, which is also frustrating because I miss musical cues. At that point, the dorkitude sets in, and it becomes a viscious loop. As I have said, in clubbing situations, it isn’t all that bad, though 99 percent of the time I can feel that I have absolutely no idea what the beat is. I am just essentially moving at that point, trying to copy what my partner is doing. And that, **CanvasShoes** , is the problem. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/57 "2003-09-05T20:04:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diane \* > \*\*I dunno, it has always been MHO that the men who dance the best are usually gay. \*\* Sigh, not even the gay men in Anchorage dance (not very many of them anyway). I’d be happy to have a gay dance partner, JUST to get to dance, but, they’re very rare up here for some reason. (ps, I hope that was a whoosh, otherwise, I can hear the stampede gunning for you for YOUR “gross generalization” :D). ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/58 "2003-09-05T20:31:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JustPlainBryan \* > \*\*I’m glad we have a dance teacher among the doper ranks! I have a question, for **CanvasShoes**. > > Have your ever sucessfully taught a novice how to follow rhythm consistently (and I mean someone who had very little to no exposure to music as a child)? This is the part that is immensely difficult for me. I have no doubts that your students can learn the actual moves. I myself learned more than a few moves in swing dancing class. In that respect, perhaps, I am “in tune with my body”. It is matching that to music that is the problem. This is the part that is most frustrating to me, and to my partner who relies on me to be the lead (and who by the way has an innate sense of rhythm). Just when I think I have it, I lose the rhythm completely and have to start over again. Either that or I just have to count a beat in my head and not listen to the music at all, which is also frustrating because I miss musical cues. > > At that point, the dorkitude sets in, and it becomes a viscious loop. > > As I have said, in clubbing situations, it isn’t all that bad, though 99 percent of the time I can feel that I have absolutely no idea what the beat is. I am just essentially moving at that point, trying to copy what my partner is doing. > > And that, **CanvasShoes** , is the problem. \*\* **gobear**? I hope you don’t mind the hijack (maybe it’ll get more people to dance :D). Sure, I’ve taught lots of novices. My rule of thumb is that if a student isn’t learning, it’s NOT that they “can’t” dance, it’s that I haven’t communicated what they need to know, in a way that makes sense to them. (just because a person knows how to do something may not necessarily make them good at teaching it). First of all, it depends upon what type of dancing you’re doing. If you’re just free styling (what we call “just butt-shaking” :)), then it’s all about your personal taste. But I see that you’re talking swing. East Coast or West Coast? What you say about leading is kind of funny. My boyfriend is an EXCELLENT lead, but he has trouble picking up on the start beat, so I usually have to “5\_6\_7\_8” and then he’s great at it. For the truly rhythm challenged, I have some clapping games (the ones you used to play at camp maybe?) that are stupid but fun and usually help. Also, I have my students “practice” by tapping the specific dance rhythm on their steering wheel when they’re driving and listening to music. For East Coast/2 Step that would be 1, 2 3& or quick, quick …sloooow, sloooow. Use the appropriate hands on the wheel, for men it’s lead with the left? Now West coast is a bit different. Unfortunately, I am not as good with the men’s lead pattern as I am with the woman’s (on West coast the patterns are a bit different for the lead and follow). But at any rate, the same “practice” method would help. Don’t be afraid to be a firm lead (even if you screw up), have your wife follow, but perhaps give you verbal cues? She might unconsciously “take over”. I know that’s one of my faults too. It comes from being fairly recent to couples dancing and having years of ballet/jazz/rock/gymnastics etc where I “did my own thing” so to speak. Also, even if you mess up? Don’t just stop in the middle of practice, pick right back up on your count and keep going. Remember, there are no dance cops!! No one else is watching you! (and if someone on the sidelines IS making fun of you? hell, what wusses!! After all, their safe and sound in their seats nursing too many beers, awful easy to “coach from the armchair” right?). Anyway, most people who are also learning to dance are too busy watching their own feet and trying to “get it right” too look at you, and the “cool ones” (what we call the “dance snobs”) are too busy admiring themselves to look at you. If you mess up and feel the “dorkitude” coming on? Just laugh at it and have fun, and move on. One thing that sometimes helps newbies is to have a few moves that they get really, really good at before they try the “fancier” stuff. Were you ever in the military? You know the funky little “halfstep” you use to get back in cadence if you get on the wrong foot? You can “cheat” and use that in dancing too 🙂 I hope that helps a bit!!! Otherwise, lots of nightclubs and dance halls have either free or small charges for dance lessons. Most of my fellow instructors are very patient and fun to boot. Oh, one last tip, try to find an instructor who understands time and “counts” not just one who will instruct by saying something to the effect of “okay, go like this, then this, blah blah”. You want someone who knows how to correlate the beats your body is performing to the actual beats of the music. And knows how to “break it down” for the dancers. After all, your body is behaving pretty much like a musical instrument, there are a certain number of beats per “measure” of music, and your body will be doing a certain number of moves per each one of these musical beats, it’s like math. (amazing that I’m a math phobe huh?). Good LUCK! ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/59 "2003-09-05T20:41:13Z")
CS, it was a whooosh, I was trying to make a funny. BTW, you live in Anchorage!?!?!? I LOVE ALASKA! I try to visit every other year or so (Eagle River, Palmer, Wasilla). I am jealous that you live there! ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591/60 "2003-09-05T20:56:00Z")
**CanvasShoes** , it is East Coast swing, and thanks! Perhaps I may take up trying to dance again. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-entitled-to-my-dating-criteria-so-back-off/199591.md?page=4)