# I'm getting mighty tired of the Religious Right... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-getting-mighty-tired-of-the-religious-right/206365 "2003-10-08T22:24:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 2\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-getting-mighty-tired-of-the-religious-right/206365/81 "2003-10-11T00:32:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Age Quod Agis \* > \*\*For pete’s sake, **MaxtheVool** , you’re just rehashing arguments that have already been made and addressed. But since you apparently can’t be bothered to read the entire thread before posting, I’ll try and tell you why each of your arguments doesn’t hold water, in the hopes that you’ll show the courtesy of answering the questions I’ve already posed. > \*\* Actually, I did read the entire thread, quite carefully. And as I noted, some of what I said was a rehasing of what others had said, because it had never been clearly responded to, largely due to an (ongoing) failure of communication. In any case, despite this being the Pit, I appreciate your polite response to my post, and I will do my best to respond in kind. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. As I’ve said before, the mere fact that other people are discriminated against more harshly doesn’t mean that Christians weren’t discriminated against here. Is your lesbian friend not suffering from discrimination in America because Christians are being jailed and killed in the Middle East and China? > \*\* I’m not an authority on discrimination against Christians in the Middle East and China, but I believe that it occurs, probably quite horrifically, and I abhor it. I, personally, am attempting to discuss the situation in the US, as I believe was the intent of the OP, although it’s a bit vague. Certainly, when the OP said “Christians are being oppressed or discriminated against. No, idiots are being discriminated against. Oh, and those who break the laws of the land, too.” I don’t think that jailed Chinese Christians were being referred to. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. There is no _de minimus_ exception to the definition of “discrimination.” There is no requirement that something must be “horrific” before it meets the definition of “discrimination.” So while you can argue that what happened here does not jibe with your personal connotation of “discrimination,” I’ll take solace in the fact that my definition jibes with the definition and connotation of the Courts, the dictionary, and logic. > \*\* I believe you’re misinterpreting what I’m saying, in that I basically agree with what you just said. However, there are two key points I’m trying to make which your statement does not directly contradict. In particular, you have spend much of your post claiming that discrimination occurred, and claiming that I claimed discrimination didn’t occur. Whereas I basically conceded that discrimination occurred, but argued that it was “discrimination against religious people/organizations” rather than “discrimination against Christians”. Therefore, there’s no point in responding to me by saying “but look! discrimination! right there! discrimination! the courts say so!” In addition, there’s some fairly vague language used by the OP, and by posters like **gobear** , which makes it a bit unclear whether anyone ever made a blanket statement along the lines of “no Christian in the US has ever been discriminated against, at all, for any reason”, which would clearly be overbroad. The point that the OP was trying to make, I think, which I agree with, is that it is horribly frustrating and insulting to hear Christians talk about the anti-Christian discrimination that they face, because (a) it’s so minor in nature that well-intentioned and intelligent people such as the participants in this thread can have long nit-picking arguments about whether or not it actually exists, is actually “against Christians”, etc. and (b) even if it does exist, it pales in comparison to the discrimination that other groups face, much of which is supported by some, though not all, Christians and Christian groups. Another reason why people have reacted as hostilely as they have is that there is a history of situations, such as school prayer and the “under god”-in-the-pledge issue, in which some Christians have attempted to disingenuously portray their position as one of fighting-for-their-rights and opposing-anti-Christian-discrimination. So in vaguely comparable situations, it’s easy to be suspicious of claims of anti-Christian discrimination. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. It’s offensive for the Courts to use the word “discrimination” to describe the state sanctioned bar against Christians gathering together when the doors were opened to everyone else, but it’s A-OK for you to use the word discrimination to describe your teacher’s selection of someone else as teacher’s pet? > \*\* I disagree with both parts of what you just said. I never said that it was offensive for the courts to use the word “discrimination” in these cases because, as mentioned earlier, I agree that there was discrimination in these cases. If I were in charge of the world, schools would allow chess clubs, gay clubs, Jewish clubs, and Christian clubs. To do otherwise would be discriminatory. And, it **is** offensive, imho, to describe what occurred to me as discrimination. In fact, that’s specifically why I brought it up, to propose an example of something super-trivial. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. The OP merely asked for instances of discrimination against Christians. I’ve certainly provided that. > \*\* Actually, as I read it, the OP didn’t ask for anything, it just whined about Christian whining. Later posters asked for very specific instances of specifically anti-Christian discrimination. To the best of my knowledge, what we’re arguing about at this point is whether such examples have been provided. \*\* > [@](#): > > Your attempts to change the definition of “discriminate” to meet your personal definition (which is apparently at odds with the definition the rest of us use) are silly. > \*\* I don’t believe I did any such thing. \*\* > [@](#): > > The Christianness is the determinative factor. The groups were banned because they were Christian. > \*\* And finally we come to the crux of it. The groups were banned because they were _religious_. Had there been a policy in place at one of these schools saying “Christian groups can not form clubs”, then there would have been inarguable discrimination against Christians. However, there was a policy saying “religious groups may not form clubs”. Which is not the same thing at all. To propose Yet Another Analogy, if there were a school policy against garage bands, and a group of students wanted to form a Christian-themed garage band, and were not allowed to do so, would that be anti-Christian discrimination? I mean, the students were Christian, and they were doing a Christian-oriented thing, and they were not allowed to do so, whereas other groups, like the Chess Club and the Koran-Haiku-Writing group, were allowed to exist, so there was discrimination, but was it, specifically, anti-Christian discrimination? I say not. What say you? \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. If there wasn’t discrimination in these cases, then why did the Courts use the words “discrimination” and “discriminate”? > \*\* Already answered. There was, imho, discrimination. It just wasn’t anti-Christian. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. How was this not discrimination against Christians when Christians brought the suit, and the Courts ruled that discrimination had happened to the religious groups bringing suit? > \*\* Again, this is the crux of the matter. See my garage band analogy above. Yes, the students were Christian. And yes, they were attempting to do a Christian-oriented thing. But they were not stopped specifically because they believed that Christ was their savior. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. Do you honestly believe that Christians have never been discriminated against? \*\* In the history of the world? No, of course not. In contemporary US society? Well, let me turn that around on you… Do you believe that Christians face discrimination because of their religion, discrimination not faced by people of other faiths, in contemporary US society? And if so, on a scale of 0 to 10, where 0 is no discrimination at all and 10 is, say, the amount of discrimination that blacks faced in the pre-Civil-Rights-movement south, how much discrimination do you think they face? Again, I appreciate the courtesy of your response, and I’ve attempted to answer your questions honestly and directly. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-getting-mighty-tired-of-the-religious-right/206365/82 "2003-10-11T02:37:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Age Quod Agis \* > \*\*If there was no discrimination, then why has every Court that’s decided the issue found discrimination? Why has every Court that’s decided the issue gone directly against what you people are arguing? \*\* [Wrong!](http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/99/99-31071-CV0.HTM) The courts were split on this. A district court ruled in favor of the Christian organization, then the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled for the school district, saying > [@](#): > > We hold that the District’s use policy complies with the First Amendment as being neither unconstitutionally vague **nor viewpoint discriminatory.** It then went to the Supremes who vacated the judgment and sent it back to the 5th Circuit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-getting-mighty-tired-of-the-religious-right/206365.md?page=4)