# I'm glad Groman is driving 3000 miles from here. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 30, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252 "2006-01-30T20:23:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/1 "2006-01-30T20:23:34Z")
In [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7050130&postcount=30) post, Groman drools out the following: "Point is, we’re all doing something incredibly dangerous while driving, and those few who don’t usually tend to be horrible drivers and enter the freeway at 30mph and then merge. If you don’t want other people needlessly endangering your life, you shouldn’t live in a human society, IMO." This is after he admits driving down the freeway at 80 mph checking the status of a FedEx delivery on his cell phone. Which means that the stupid thoughtless fuckwit is reading a 15 digit number into his cell phone while speeding down the highway. His justification is the one used by jackasses the world over when they’re doing something incredibly selfish and idiotic, namely, “everyone else is doing it, but I’m doing it safely because I’m somehow superior.” Now I’m sure that Groman’s FedEx delivery is incredibly important and I’m sure that \* even if it were delayed, there’d be something he could do about it while driving down the highway \*, so what he’s doing is clearly vital to him and the economy of the US. I’m sure that’s going to be just a huge fucking consolation to the person that Groman rearends while he’s trying to read that tracking number. Groman, I just hope that when your superior driving habits do finally result in your getting some mileage out of your organ donor card, that you’re the only one involved in the accident, and that you have your seat belt fastened so that the resulting cleanup isn’t too traumatic for the EMT’s and highway patrol. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/2 "2006-01-30T20:40:25Z")
Except I contend that talking on a hands free device (and I remembered the tracking number) is no more dangerous than having a casual conversation with a passenger. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Have you never had a casual conversation with a passenger while driving? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/3 "2006-01-30T20:54:53Z")
> [@groman](#): > > Except I contend that talking on a hands free device (and I remembered the tracking number) is no more dangerous than having a casual conversation with a passenger. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? [Yes](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/12/technology/12auto.html?ei=5088&en=37b03449357c384d&ex=1278820800&adxnnl=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1121176997-Z8f1GHxj3cerGFXZiUz5Aw). > [@](#): > > “There just doesn’t seem to be any safety benefit by restricting drivers to hands-free phones,” said Rae Tyson, a spokesman for the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. “It’s the cognitive overload that sometimes occurs when you’re engaging in a conversation that is the source of the distraction more so than the manipulation of the device.” One possible explanation for the disparity is that during conversations with passengers, there are additional sets of eyes able to monitor road conditions. Passengers can warn the driver of impending hazards. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/4 "2006-01-30T20:59:16Z")
> [@groman](#): > > Except I contend that talking on a hands free device (and I remembered the tracking number) is no more dangerous than having a casual conversation with a passenger. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? [Yup.](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/01/030129080944.htm) [In preview: Oh, and so does **Q.E.D.**] > [@](#): > > Motorists are more accident-prone and slower to react when they talk on cellular telephones - even hands-free models - because “inattention blindness” makes the drivers less able to process visual information, University of Utah researchers found. […] > > The study concludes that that inattention blindness explains the researchers’ widely publicized 2001 findings that users of hands-free and hand-held cell phones are equally impaired, missing more traffic signals and reacting to signals more slowly than motorists who do not use cell phones. > > The new study is being published in the March 2003 issue of the Journal of Experimental Psychology: Applied. A portion of the study also is featured in the February-March 2003 issue of Injury Insights, published by the National Safety Council. […] > > The earlier study also found there was no impairment of drivers who either conversed with a passenger or who listened to the radio or to books on tape. > > The new study included four experiments aimed at explaining why cell-phone conversations are more distracting than those activities, and why hands-free and hand-held cell phone users were equally impaired when driving. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/5 "2006-01-30T21:00:38Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > [Yes](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/12/technology/12auto.html?ei=5088&en=37b03449357c384d&ex=1278820800&adxnnl=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1121176997-Z8f1GHxj3cerGFXZiUz5Aw). > > One possible explanation for the disparity is that during conversations with passengers, there are additional sets of eyes able to monitor road conditions. Passengers can warn the driver of impending hazards. I’ll give you that, however, I am aware of the fact that anything I do in a car besides driving increases risk to others and adjust my driving accordingly. Proposing that under no circumstances should anybody ever endanger others for their own benefit will eliminate nice things like BBQs, golfing and competitive sports. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/6 "2006-01-30T21:03:54Z")
Ditto, there is quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. There was just a special on the Discovery channel on drivers who were, variously, drunk, sleep deprived, and distracted. Even the people who were doing something hands-free, like talking, were significantly impaired - almost as much as drunk drivers. The fact that you don’t feel impaired smacks of a guy leaving a bar, saying “Naw, guys, I’m cool to drive.” ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/7 "2006-01-30T21:04:44Z")
> [@groman](#): > > Except I contend that talking on a hands free device (and I remembered the tracking number) is no more dangerous than having a casual conversation with a passenger. Well, then, you would be wrong. > [@groman](#): > > Do you have any evidence to the contrary? As a matter of fact, [I just so happen to have such evidence](http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.psych.utah.edu/AppliedCognitionLab/DrivingSymposium.pdf). (warning, pdf) > [@](#): > > Our research assessed the effects of cellular phone conversations on driving performance. When subjects were deeply involved in cellular phone conversations using either a hand-held or hands-free device, they were more than twice as likely to miss simulated traffic signals presented at the center of fixation than when they were not distracted by the cell phone conversation. > [@groman](#): > > Have you never had a casual conversation with a passenger while driving? Of course, that is not [nearly as great a cause of distraction](http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.psych.utah.edu/AppliedCognitionLab/HFES2004-000597-1.pdf) (warning pdf) as a cell phone conversation: > [@](#): > > We compared how well drivers followed task instructions when driving only, when driving and conversing on a cell phone, and when driving and conversing with a passenger. The results show that the number of driving errors was highest in the cell-phone condition. In short, hang up and drive. You can check your FedEx package some other time, it isn’t that important. Really, I promise. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/8 "2006-01-30T21:11:08Z")
> [@groman](#): > > I’ll give you that, however, I am aware of the fact that anything I do in a car besides driving increases risk to others and adjust my driving accordingly. You only _think_ you are. A great deal of research shows that drivers conversing on cell phones are unaware of the level of impairment. Several studies have demonstrated that drivers talking on a chell phone, either using a headset or holding the handset, move their eyes around far less frequently than they do when not on the phone, including conversations with passengers. Additionally, they appear to develop a kind of tunnel vision _which persists even after ending the call_, apparently as a result of the necessity of the brain to process the data. Participants who were later asked to rate their degree of impairment while engaged in cell phone conversations vastly underestimated the degree of said impairment, when compared to actual test results. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/9 "2006-01-30T21:12:49Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > In short, hang up and drive. You can check your FedEx package some other time, it isn’t that important. Really, I promise. But then why do you chose to draw the line there? As per linked articles it seems that talking to a passenger is still more dangerous than not talking at all, and I’ve just found a study that says that high intensity music impairs your reaction time. [(here, however, it also states that low-intensity music improves driving ability)](http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/(lr3j2iik0locwm45pg0mg0ab)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,5,8;journal,87,118;linkingpublicationresults,1:100658,1) Why draw the line at one dangerous activity rather than a slightly more dangerous or a slightly less dangerous? More importantly, who should draw that line for any particular individual? The person driving who has been licensed to drive an automobile, who carries the liability, and who everybody trusts not to plow into pedestrians on a whim, or you, an unrelated third party who feels nervous? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/10 "2006-01-30T21:22:43Z")
> [@groman](#): > > Why draw the line at one dangerous activity rather than a slightly more dangerous or a slightly less dangerous? This is hardly the case. Almost unanimously, various studies and analyses of accident statistics show that talking on a cell phone is four to five times as likely to lead to an accident. This is comparable with the risk of driving while drunk. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/11 "2006-01-30T21:26:48Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > This is hardly the case. Almost unanimously, various studies and analyses of accident statistics show that talking on a cell phone is four to five times as likely to lead to an accident. This is comparable with the risk of driving while drunk. Which means that the risks of driving drunk are highly exaggerated, or San Franciscans would go extinct in a very short order. 🙂 No, I don’t contend those stats, I contend that it’s my decision to increase the risk of an accident four to five times by talking on the phone, just like it’s your decision not to drive drunk or not plow into kindergarteners on purpose. Personal responsibility people. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/12 "2006-01-30T21:31:23Z")
> [@groman](#): > > No, I don’t contend those stats, I contend that it’s my decision to increase the risk of an accident four to five times by talking on the phone… That would be all well and good if you could guarantee that any such accident only involved you. But, you cannot. There exists a significant risk to others, as well. It may be acceptable to you, but it is not acceptable to those who must share the road with you. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/13 "2006-01-30T21:32:14Z")
Now you’re just trying to dress your own personal irresponsibility in pseudo-libertarian verbiage. If you really believe in personal responsibility, you will be personally responsible for the accidents what you cause, and not file any insurance claims. Better yet would be to take the responsibility to personally not use the cell phone while driving. Even better yet, stop the pseudo-intellectual self-justifications and admit that you have personally done an irresponsible action. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/14 "2006-01-30T21:34:28Z")
> [@groman](#): > > Have you never had a casual conversation with a passenger while driving? I haven’t. Doilies and top hats all around. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/15 "2006-01-30T21:41:47Z")
> [@groman](#): > > Which means that the risks of driving drunk are highly exaggerated, or San Franciscans would go extinct in a very short order. 🙂 No, it means \*you \*highly underestimate the risks of driving while distracted. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/16 "2006-01-30T21:47:46Z")
> [@groman](#): > > (here, however, it also states that low-intensity music improves driving ability Ah…that explains why my new Toyota came with a Neil Sedaka CD. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/17 "2006-01-30T21:54:34Z")
I agree that even hands-free cell use probably impairs driving. From personal use, I believe it (no accidents, but I think I can tell the difference). Groman did bring up a good point, though. Why draw the line at cell use, hands-free or otherwise? I’m sure there are other issues that are of greater impact that hands-free phone use. Off the top of my head, I can think of several mechanical issues that I would guess have greater impact (no pun intended): [ul] [li]Tire pressure / age[/li][li]Wheel alignment[/li][li]General health of the car (bolts tightened, facia well-connected, etc.)[/li][li]Super-loud music (it HAS to be distracting)[/li][/ul] [ul] [li]Diabetes (who’s to say a lapse in control doesn’t produce a problem?)[/li][li]Epilepsy (same as above)[/li][li]Heart Conditions [/li][/ul] I wonder if people don’t jump on the first popular target for crappy driving. -Cem ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/18 "2006-01-30T22:12:43Z")
> [@Cemetery Savior](#): > > I wonder if people don’t jump on the first popular target for crappy driving. The battle is not always to the strong nor the race to the swift, but that’s the way to bet it. If somebody’s talking on a cell phone and rear-ends somebody, nobody’s going to wonder whether or not his tires were properly inflated. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/19 "2006-01-30T22:22:47Z")
> [@Cemetery Savior](#): > > Ah…that explains why my new Toyota came with a Neil Sedaka CD. Geez, just reading that makes me want to mow down pedestrians. As to where to draw the line, who’s to say how much blood alcohol is too much? I say let the drunk decide. Persanbul respossibibbity, peepuh. _crash_ ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252/20 "2006-01-30T22:31:47Z")
> [@groman](#): > > I contend that it’s my decision to increase the risk of an accident four to five times by talking on the phone, just like it’s your decision not to drive drunk or not plow into kindergarteners on purpose. Personal responsibility people. But it’s not just “my decision” not to drive drunk. The law “helps” me make that decision by decreeing that I MAY NOT drive drunk, and if they catch me at it (accident or no accident), they’re going to can my ass. If talking on a cell phone while driving produces a similar level of impairment to driving drunk, I see no reason not to make that illegal too. > [@Cem](#): > > I’m sure there are other issues that are of greater impact that hands-free phone use. Probably, and a lot of them are also covered by law. For example, the “general vehicular health” issue you bring up is why cars are legally required to pass an annual inspection. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-glad-groman-is-driving-3000-miles-from-here/342252.md?page=2)