# I'm going to the funeral of a transgender person **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 1, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365 "2015-06-01T18:28:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ze\_Pr0fes0re](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/8dc957/32.png) [@Ze\_Pr0fes0re](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ze_Pr0fes0re)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/41 "2015-06-03T20:43:52Z")
> [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](#): > > Mf. I for one am going to get well out of the way before the angry mob turns up, but I’ll offer a quick word to the wise - there is probably zero percent chance that referring to a transperson as “it” is going to go down well, Pr0f. That’s what I’m saying, I’m glad I am not the one who had to go. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/42 "2015-06-03T21:00:03Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > So how does one respectfully refer to the athlete who was on Wheaties boxes in the 70s? Generally, you use how they identify now. If instead of transitioning, Caitlyn Jenner had simply changed her name, would you hem and haw about whether it was Bruce or Aidan who had won the gold? It’s the same person, all that’s changed is the appellation and some function words that happen to be marked for gender. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/43 "2015-06-03T22:15:25Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It seems a little – um, revisionist? – to say that Caitlyn Jenner won the gold for Men’s Decathlon in 1976. It just isn’t what happened. She only recently transitioned, and has 65 years worth of memories and achievements as a man. Q: Who won the gold medal for Men’s Decathlon in 1976? A: Caitlyn Jenner (born Bruce Jenner) For reference works, no problem. In daily discourse it’s trickier, of course. In the case of Jenner, I bet she’d just as soon we say “he” for then and “she” for now. In the Sawyer interview, he clearly stated the proper pronoun was masculine, until the planned reassignment. So, I bet she wouldn’t mind us saying how many medals Bruce won when he participated in the Olympics. IIRC, he talked that way himself, during the interview. Of course, I don’t expect every transgender person to feel the same way, and if someone wants to be considered the same sex for his or her whole life, I’ll do my best to accommodate it and just deal with the minor confusion that may sometimes arise. I’m interested to hear what transgender people on the board think. I don’t think I noticed any posting above. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/44 "2015-06-04T05:35:35Z")
The funeral was today and I thought I would chime in with how that went. It was interesting. First of all, the person delivering the eulogy pointed out that “Steve” fought for the rights of transgendered individuals. He fought for his own identity. So, out of respect for the fact that I am speaking about a real, flesh and blood person with a real identity, I shall refer to him as Ryan. That was his name. The equality sign was featured prominently on the casket spray. The other flower arrangements also featured rainbows and other symbols associated with equal rights for the LGBT people. The service was held at an Evangelical Lutheran church. I have attended funerals and weddings in this church, but I have not been a regular member of the congregation. The minister there is fairly new, having arrived after the last ceremony I attended in this church. Based on her (yes, her) handling of this funeral, I would consider joining her church. When we returned to the car, I told my wife and daughter that, were I to depart this world in the near future (I have no reason to think that would happen), I would be just fine with this lady performing the funeral. That’s actually kind of huge for me. I’m not a formal religion kind of guy. Lutheran funerals (and other services) are very liturgical, and this funeral was no different. It had all the usual features – the calls and responses, the reading from Scripture, etc. It was the Homily where the pastor truly shined. This is when the minister can deliver a brief sermon to help the mourners put their grief in context and find some measure of peace. She told the story of Jesus offering the Samaritan woman water that would lead to everlasting life. From there, she likened this to the everlasting life that Jesus offers all of us in Baptism. Then, she got to it! She described how Ryan was welcomed into the Family of Jesus at his Baptism. Then she said, “Okay, let’s go ahead and name the elephant in the room. _Heather_ became a Child of God when she was Baptized.” Then she tossed the elephant on its ear! She said (paraphrasing, as I don’t remember the exact words), “Yes, she was Heather, and he was Ryan. But, God doesn’t care about the labels that man applies. Ryan was a Child of God and THAT is all that matters. That is the only label that matters.” No one made a sound, but you could feel the tension leave the room. At least, I did. I wish my words could adequately express what I felt at that moment. It isn’t that I hadn’t had similar thoughts myself. It was just so nice to hear the minister say it. It was like she was giving us all permission to grieve all of Ryan, including the part that we remember as Heather. But, this single person was welcomed into the arms of Our Savior and we should rejoice in that. Folks, that is my God. I don’t recognize the God too often described by so-called Christians in the media. I had the opportunity to visit with Ryan’s mom and share stories. I told the stories that I alluded to in an earlier post. We both understood what we were saying and what Ryan meant in our lives, regardless of the label we used. There were tears and Ryan has certainly left this world far too soon. When I attend a funeral, I look for the services to help me reconcile my feelings and make something positive. I had that today. Thank you for going on this journey with me. (Well, maybe except for the person calling a trans person “it”. Seriously, what’s wrong with you?) ---
**Author:** ![Chauve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Chauve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chauve)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/45 "2015-06-04T05:42:02Z")
Thanks for the updates. It was nice to read a detailed, first-hand account of the experience. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/46 "2015-06-04T14:27:00Z")
Darn, no “like” button. I’m an unbeliever, so I don’t share your views on religion, but I can respect them. They’re certainly a lot easier to respect when they don’t fly in the face of humanist values. > [@Drum\_God](#): > > … the person calling a trans person “it”. Seriously, what’s wrong with you? Whoever that person is, it needs a vocabulary update. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/47 "2015-06-04T14:42:34Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > Folks, that is my God. I don’t recognize the God too often described by so-called Christians in the media. A lot of people talk like this. But the stats show that the more liberal churches tend to lose the most members. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/48 "2015-06-04T14:42:56Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Q: Who won the gold medal for Men’s Decathlon in 1976? > > A: Caitlyn Jenner (born Bruce Jenner) _shrug_ If you must. But as long as you’re acknowledging the prior existence of a Bruce Jenner then you might as well admit that the person in question also publicly self-identified as “Bruce” at the time, and it’s less of a reach to say either “Caitlyn Jenner (then Bruce Jenner)” or “Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner)”. ---
**Author:** ![Ze\_Pr0fes0re](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/8dc957/32.png) [@Ze\_Pr0fes0re](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ze_Pr0fes0re)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/49 "2015-06-04T15:03:47Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > I don’t see any mob coming after “Ze Pr0fes0re” (whether or not new as of today), but I do believe that (s)he would serve her/himself better focusing instead on his/her clinical depression with suicidal ideation rather than spend time on expressing relief that (s)he has “never [but the once?] had to deal with this.” > > _sigh_ Lol why are you talking to me in a third person? Actually one thing you can never go wrong with if you’re talking to someone that’s a bit educated is using the singular form of “they”. But peeps need to have something between their ears to get what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Ze\_Pr0fes0re](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/8dc957/32.png) [@Ze\_Pr0fes0re](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ze_Pr0fes0re)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/50 "2015-06-04T15:29:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > A lot of people talk like this. But the stats show that the more liberal churches tend to lose the most members. Thelema already exists. Kinda pointless of turning Christianity into it. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/51 "2015-06-04T16:09:24Z")
> [@Ze\_Pr0fes0re](#): > > Lol why are you talking to me in a third person? > Actually one thing you can never go wrong with if you’re talking to someone that’s a bit educated is using the singular form of “they”. > > But peeps need to have something between their ears to get what you’re talking about. They’re not talking to you, they’re talking about you. ---
**Author:** ![Ze\_Pr0fes0re](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/8dc957/32.png) [@Ze\_Pr0fes0re](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ze_Pr0fes0re)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/52 "2015-06-04T16:52:22Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > They’re not talking to you, they’re talking about you. HAHAHAH! I don’t know I should give you this much credit but if you are talking about Fallen in singular now then brilliantly done! If not then your post makes no sense as he isn’t replying to anyone and just sounds like an idiot =) ---
**Author:** ![Ze\_Pr0fes0re](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/8dc957/32.png) [@Ze\_Pr0fes0re](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ze_Pr0fes0re)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/53 "2015-06-04T16:56:05Z")
Oh no! He actually did! :smack: God I’m the idiot now. I read the start of that other post and I thought it was directed to someone called Mf. I realise now I was being called mother fucker 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/54 "2015-06-04T19:43:09Z")
> [@Ze\_Pr0fes0re](#): > > God I’m the idiot now. And scene. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/55 "2015-06-05T04:08:04Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Q: Who won the gold medal for Men’s Decathlon in 1976? > > A: Caitlyn Jenner (born Bruce Jenner) > > For reference works, no problem. In daily discourse it’s trickier, of course. > > In the case of Jenner, I bet she’d just as soon we say “he” for then and “she” for now. In the Sawyer interview, he clearly stated the proper pronoun was masculine, until the planned reassignment. So, I bet she wouldn’t mind us saying how many medals Bruce won when he participated in the Olympics. IIRC, he talked that way himself, during the interview. Of course, I don’t expect every transgender person to feel the same way, and if someone wants to be considered the same sex for his or her whole life, I’ll do my best to accommodate it and just deal with the minor confusion that may sometimes arise. > > I’m interested to hear what transgender people on the board think. I don’t think I noticed any posting above. Learjeff, you gave the easy answer yourself “Jenner” won the gold medal in 1976. Newspapers often give the athlete’s full name once and then only refer to their surname. It’s an easy out. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/56 "2015-06-05T04:17:01Z")
Thanks for the follow up Drum God. The pastor handled that very well. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/57 "2015-06-05T04:31:35Z")
> [@carnut](#): > > Thanks for the follow up Drum God. The pastor handled that very well. This. A beautiful thing by all involved. Rest in peace, Steve. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/58 "2015-06-07T08:03:18Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Q: Who won the gold medal for Men’s Decathlon in 1976? > > A: Caitlyn Jenner (born Bruce Jenner) > > For reference works, no problem. In daily discourse it’s trickier, of course. > > In the case of Jenner, I bet she’d just as soon we say “he” for then and “she” for now. In the Sawyer interview, he clearly stated the proper pronoun was masculine, until the planned reassignment. So, I bet she wouldn’t mind us saying how many medals Bruce won when he participated in the Olympics. IIRC, he talked that way himself, during the interview. Of course, I don’t expect every transgender person to feel the same way, and if someone wants to be considered the same sex for his or her whole life, I’ll do my best to accommodate it and just deal with the minor confusion that may sometimes arise. > > I’m interested to hear what transgender people on the board think. I don’t think I noticed any posting above. Caitlyn Jenner’s continued use of male pronouns while presenting as female rankled the transgender community. I know many talking heads and bloggers in the community did their best to avoid referencing the issue, but among the transgender communities I’m in pretty much 95% were uncomfortable with Jenner presenting female in any way and calling themselves “he.” It would be seen as gauche at best and offensive at worst to go back to the original name and pronouns of a transgender person. Think about it this way - if you knew a young lady Sue Brown in high school, and later she married and became Sue Green, would you refer to her at her funeral as “Miss Brown” or “Mrs. Green?” If the current naming and descriptors are used for something as basic as marriage, then it certainly seems proper to respect the current name and gender of transgender people. I would have posted earlier but I’ve been in hospital for pneumonia here in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/59 "2015-06-07T16:15:35Z")
Asked and answered. Thanks, Una! Sorry to hear about the hospital visit, get well soon. Regarding marital status, I’ve often heard people refer to a married woman using her original name and/or title when relating an event in the past, with no offense intended or received. Of course, that’s not a sensitive area. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365/60 "2015-06-07T20:55:23Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Caitlyn Jenner’s continued use of male pronouns while presenting as female rankled the transgender community.[snip] > > I would have posted earlier but I’ve been in hospital for pneumonia here in the UK. Give her a bit of time to adjust (maybe 3 months or so). She’s had to present herself as male to the media for 65 years. I hope you are on the road to recovery Una. Pneumonia really knocks the wind out of you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-the-funeral-of-a-transgender-person/721365.md?page=4)