# I'm going to undertake a six-month occult ritual - ask me anything **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 1, 2025, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475 "2025-04-01T22:10:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/121 "2025-06-16T01:13:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The fasting will be difficult since I almost always work on Fridays, so I’m going to allow myself to have water and electrolytes So as part of following a ritual you don’t believe in, you will be fasting- except that you won’t be fasting? > [@Smapti](#): > > Kaplan was ordained Orthodox but went on to become the founder of Reconstructionist Judaism, a small (about 100 or so synagogues worldwide, mostly in the US) sect that views Judaism primarily as an evolving culture where traditional law has “a voice but not a veto” and generally takes a Deist/humanist approach to its views on God, which I find highly compelling. I’d never even heard of Reconstructionism until recently, but it turns out that out of the two Jewish congregations in this county, one of them, which I know to be very active in the community helping the poor and pursuing social justice programs, is Reconstructionist. (The other is a Chabad center, and to be honest those guys kinda weird me out.) One of my favorite rabbis on the planet is Reconstructionist. Yeah, the group ranges from devoutly theist to fully atheist. I cannot remember who said this. Telushkin quotes and explains it in Jewish Literacy. “There are two kinds of Jews in America today- those who think Judaism is a social justice movement, and those who can read Hebrew.” The point is- to fulfill your duty as a Jew, you need to do both. > [@Smapti](#): > > This fall, towards the end of the ritual, I plan on enrolling in an online Intro To Judaism course intended for converts, which the rabbi of the aforementioned Reconstructionist temple is one of the teachers for. (Not that I’m necessarily saying I want to convert, and if I do I don’t intend to schedule meeting with that rabbi about it until nearly a year from now, but for now I’m feeling very “This too is Torah and I must learn”.) I would strongly recommend honesty. Any decent rabbi is always interested in answering questions asked honestly and without an agenda, and in teaching anybody willing to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/122 "2025-06-16T01:24:27Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Telushkin quotes and explains it in Jewish Literacy. “There are two kinds of Jews in America today- those who think Judaism is a social justice movement, and those who can read Hebrew.” The point is- to fulfill your duty as a Jew, you need to do both. I do recall that quote. I would like to learn some Hebrew at some point, at least enough to be able to understand Rashi. > [@DocCathode](#): > > So as part of following a ritual you don’t believe in, you will be fasting- except that you won’t be fasting? My only concern is that I don’t want to accidentally become dehydrated while I’m at work. I’ve been dehydrated to the point of needing medical attention before. It wasn’t a good time. > [@DocCathode](#): > > would strongly recommend honesty. Any decent rabbi is always interested in answering questions asked honestly and without an agenda, and in teaching anybody willing to learn. The honest answer at this point is that I don’t know if I want to convert, but I do want to learn more. I’ve looked into the process this temple follows for converts, and taking this particular class is a prerequisite anyway, so I’ll have ample time to make a decision while I’m taking it. If I do decide to move forward at that point I intend on explaining exactly how I wound up on this path. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/123 "2025-06-16T01:56:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The honest answer at this point is that I don’t know if I want to convert, but I do want to learn more. Yeah, just say that. I have no desire to convert to any other religion. I enjoy learning about them though. I am deeply suspicious of any religion that does not happily explain things to outsiders, and answer those honestly seeking knowledge. Really the only ‘religion’ that I have encountered that was not like that is The Church Of Scientology. I have plenty of questions about Judaism too. I have only once met a rabbi who was not genuinely happy to answer my questions. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/124 "2025-06-16T02:18:27Z")
I can’t speak to the program **Smapti** is engaged in, but Judaism per se permits breaking fasts (and even violating the laws of Sabbath) for medical reasons or if someone is endangered. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/125 "2025-06-16T02:38:15Z")
I am aware of that. There are, besides Yom Kippur, a few fasts that are supposed to be observed every year. But, this is not fasting as part of the calendar year. This is undertaking an entirely optional ritual, disregarding various parts of it, and then not fasting when it comes to the fasting stage. As I have said before, if **Smapti** simply wished to learn about Judaism, that would be great. **Smapti** is performing a six month ritual. He doesn’t believe in the supernatural rewards of the ritual. He has disregarded various rules of the ritual. Now, he is disregarded another rule of a ritual he chose to perform. So, why bother to perform the ritual at all? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/126 "2025-06-16T03:17:19Z")
The rules of the Abramelin allow you to make accomodations for the sake of your health (in fact, if I were to suffer from illness at this point I would be obliged to abandon the operation and start over from the beginning) and don’t specify the format of the fast as long as it’s from sunrise to sundown on Friday. By my interpreation, abstaining from food and any liquids other than salty water is sufficient. And as I believe I explained back in April, I’m doing this because I believe the experience will be good for me, and so far it has been. I’ll post again in a few weeks after I see how the fasting works out. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/127 "2025-06-16T03:25:07Z")
I have medication that I must take with food. If I voluntarily fast but need to break it periodically to take a medication with some crackers and water, should I not fast the rest of the time that I’m able? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/128 "2025-06-16T11:57:45Z")
Again, the standard fasts for Yom Kippor, Tish b’av, the fast of Esther, the fast of the first born etc happen on schedule every year. This thread is about deciding to undergo an entirely voluntary ritual. Except that the OP had decided to disregard large portions of the ritual before even starting. I objected to that when the thread first started. The ritual callsf for fasting. The OP **chose** this ritual, knowing they could not observe the fasting portion either. Again. this makes me wonder just why they **decided** to go through this particular ritual in the first place. I am Jewish. I decided to become more observant way back when in ninth grade when my bubby died. She was a wonderful loving human being. I asked myself what ways I should behave in order to honor her memory. I am well aware that if life is at stake, we are commanded to do anything other than kill an innocent, worship an idol, or engage in sexual immorality to save it. That is not in dispute. It is also not my problem with this thread. The OP _chose_ a ritual that would be entirely optional even if they were Jewish. They did so after deciding they would not follow various parts of the ritual and could not follow the fasting. So, why choose this particular ritual in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/129 "2025-06-16T12:54:32Z")
There’s no reason they can’t modify a set ritual to better suit their purposes and you’re being extremely uncool. This thread is about their journey and it’s not at all about you. It appears that they are getting a lot out of it and the rest of us are enjoying their journey. Who is being a benefitted by you trying to destroy the joy? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/130 "2025-06-16T13:03:41Z")
I disagree. One of the basic tenets of Kaballah is that the rules are profoundly important and must be followed in every detail. > [@hajario](#): > > It appears that they are getting a lot out of it and the rest of us are enjoying their journey. Just how far does this attitude go? If the OP were undergoing a ritual from say Navajo culture, would that make it different? > [@hajario](#): > > Who is being a benefitted by you trying to destroy the joy? Serious question- What reason do I have to sit silently while somebody appropriates a thing from my religion and then modifies it to better suit their needs? Note that my attitude about **Smapti**"s desire to learn about Judaism in general has been entirely different. As I said not long ago, I enjoy learning about other religions as well. I also consider it the duty of any rabbi to answer any questions asked honestly and without agenda, and to teach those who want to learn ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/131 "2025-06-16T13:25:17Z")
My first post in this thread > [@I'm going to undertake a six-month Kabbalah ritual - ask me anything](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-kabbalah-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/3): > > I am also confused. First, why would a ritual based in Kabbalah have a start date based on Easter? Is it just coincidence? Say what now? AIUI the whole point of Kabbalah is true knowledge and experience of the mind of G-d. Why use an “interlocutor”? Huh? Why not do any of the vast number of secular methods? Ah, this alone tells me somebody is full of crap. The qualifications to practice Kabbalah are debatable. But -must be an adult Jew, fluent in Hebrew and learned in the Talmud, must alr… A post where I give some basics on Kaballah > [@I'm going to undertake a six-month Kabbalah ritual - ask me anything](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-kabbalah-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/71): > > Originally, Kabbalah was a Jewish thing. The basic tenets were- The God of Abraham is real. No other gods are real. Hebrew is a sacred language. These are the secret magics contained in the Hebrew dictated by The Lord. Later, Christians wanted in. They changed the basic tenets. Later, other groups wanted in and changed a whole bunch of stuff- so much that they appear to have missed the point entirely. To perform a Jewish ritual from the Kaballah while worshipping any god other than the God o… > [@Smapti](#): > > When I was first just thinking about doing this and I was seeking advice in occult communities online, one thing which stuck in my head that a number of people said is that there’s no such thing as “authenticity” when it comes to ritual magic. Again, this is the opposite of Kaballah. Either you are doing the ritual in Hebrew and following all the rules, or you are at best just wasting your time. If you know of any thread where somebody asks questions about Judaism out of a simple desire to learn, and I respond in any way other than politely providing the best answers I can, please link to it. If you know of a thread where somebody discusses any other religion, and I didn’t post a bunch of polite questions because I want to learn, please link to that. Again, my objections are to cultural appropriation and not following the basic rules of the tradition being appropriated. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/132 "2025-06-16T13:57:13Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Again, my objections are to cultural appropriation and not following the basic rules of the tradition being appropriated. Demon summoning rituals tend to have very bad results if they’re not followed to the letter . . . if fiction, which is what this whole thing is anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/133 "2025-06-16T14:00:43Z")
What exactly are you saying? Cultural appropriation is okay because demon’s are not real? Or cultural approriation is okay because God is not real? Or are you saying something else altogether and I have missed it? These are genuine questions because I am genuinely not clear exactly what you are saying and don’t want to misunderstand you. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/134 "2025-06-16T14:04:27Z")
It’s not cultural appropriation because this, > The Abramelin Operation is a Kabbalah-based ritual described in a 15th century grimoire called The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage. It is attributed to a German Jew named Abraham Von Worms (like all grimoires, its authorship is the subject of much debate) who tells of how he went on a pilgrimage across Europe and the Middle East around the beginning of the 15th century and met an Egyptian hermit, the titular Abramelin, who taught him a ritual apparently derived from early post-Temple-era Jewish mysticism, the purpose of which is **to establish one’s knowledge of, and communication with, a semi-divine entity called the Holy Guardian Angel which is sort of your personal interlocutor between yourself and the divine, and thereafter, with its aid, to summon the Devil and his minions, engage in spiritual warfare with them, and force them to submit to you and carry out your will**. is made up bullshit that, AFAICT, has nothing to do with any Abrahamic faith. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/135 "2025-06-16T14:15:57Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > It’s not cultural appropriation because this, You say that, but > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > The Abramelin Operation is a Kabbalah-based ritual Yeah, Kabbalah-based. We can debate which Jewish people exactly should be stuyding and practicng Kabbalah. If you are not Jewish and practicing Kabbalah, or any Kabbalah-based rituals, that is by definition cultural appropriation. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > is made up bullshit that, AFAICT, has nothing to do with any Abrahamic faith. Then why is it claiming to be “Kabbalah-based”? The mere fact it makes that claim and also claims that it is > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > a ritual apparently derived from early post-Temple-era Jewish mysticism is cultural appropriatoon. Yes, it was mostly likely made up in the 14th century and given a phony history to make it seem authentic. As that phony hstory involved calling it “Kabbalh-based” and saying it was a ritual practiced by Jews since antiquity **is** cultural appropriation. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/136 "2025-06-16T14:40:09Z")
I am sure some Hermetic Kabbalah (widely interpreted) is inspired by (culturally appropriating??) and has philosophical links with authentic Jewish Kabbalah, with the philosophers in question not claiming to be Abrahamic, Jewish, or telling Jews what’s what. It is also quite possible that someone made up some particular ritual and _said_ it was Jewish but that was actually bullshit. I do not know much about the ritual described in these posts. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/137 "2025-06-16T14:41:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > the purpose of which is to establish one’s knowledge of, and communication with, a semi-divine entity called the Holy Guardian Angel which is sort of your personal interlocutor between yourself and the divine, and thereafter, with its aid, to summon the Devil and his minions, engage in spiritual warfare with them, and force them to submit to you and carry out your will. If I were you, I wouldn’t bite off more than I can chew. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/138 "2025-06-16T14:44:24Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Yes, it was mostly likely made up in the 14th century and given a phony history to make it seem authentic. As that phony hstory involved calling it “Kabbalh-based” and saying it was a ritual practiced by Jews since antiquity **is** cultural appropriation. I see your point but, I want something harsher when someone ‘dresses up’ their ‘snake oil’ pitch for their con in another peoples culture. So far, I haven’t seen anyone show that demon summoning and subjugation is a part of authentic Jewish Kabbalah culture. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/139 "2025-06-16T14:47:48Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > So far, I haven’t seen anyone show that demon summoning and subjugation is a part of authentic Jewish Kabbalah culture. There are, of course, various myths like these > **[The Story of King Solomon and Ashmedai - Wikisource, the free online library](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:The_Story_of_King_Solomon_and_Ashmedai)** ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2025, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475/140 "2025-06-16T14:48:12Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > If I were you, I wouldn’t bite off more than I can chew. C’mon, summoning the Devil and his minions and engaging in spiritual warfare with them surely comes with time-outs for hydration. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-going-to-undertake-a-six-month-occult-ritual-ask-me-anything/1016475.md?page=8)