# I'm inventing a COMPLETE brand-new alphabet - how many letters do I need? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 25, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860 "2011-01-25T01:02:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/1 "2011-01-25T01:02:05Z")
Inspired by this thread: [Things that the English language desperately needs](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=594052) in particular this link to a [Mark Twain quote](http://design.caltech.edu/erik/Misc/Twain_english.html), mentioned inside the above thread I want to (take your pick) a) invent a new language, or b) simplify the spelling of an existing language, for example English My ground rule is: I want one letter per sound that you can make. A one-to-one correspondance, not like the english confusion where c is sometimes the same as s, and sometimes the same as k, and where k is redundant with q, and where you need two letters for some sounds, like th. In my alphabet, the f sound will always be an f. The z sound will always be a z. ph will always be written f. etc… I know that I’ll have to write down foreign words sometimes, like Chinese place names, or Hawaiian proper names, so I need to have enough letters that I can also represent the sounds found in any other spoken language. How many letters will I need? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/2 "2011-01-25T01:07:12Z")
[International Phonetic Alphabet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA) is a place to start, and they cover most of the sounds used in languages. It says: “As of 2008, there are 107 letters, 52 diacritics, and four prosodic marks in the IPA.” Up to you if you want to count diacritics or not; if not then your number shoots up. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/3 "2011-01-25T01:07:23Z")
40 [Unifon](http://www.unifon.org/htm/rationale.htm) ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/4 "2011-01-25T01:08:36Z")
The “Deseret Alphabet” [Deseret alphabet - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_alphabet) may be helpful to look at. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/5 "2011-01-25T01:37:12Z")
One letter for each aspect of existence, as viewed by different times. Mr. Borges has deeply studied this and similar questions. ---
**Author:** ![Wogglebug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@Wogglebug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wogglebug)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/6 "2011-01-25T01:41:54Z")
Somewhat grinning at Arnold for asking this question. Troublemaker! You’d need symbols for all the pronunciation keys mentioned by, say the Websters. In addition, one could argue, any symbol in a foreign language with words commonly spoken in the US that did not correspond to the English pronunciation keys. You could try to force people to use a simpler set, but that would fail, since language and pronunciation drifts. (“In America they haven’t spoken it for years!”) (I missed the lurkinghorror’s message about the IPA, that might work, too.) ---
**Author:** ![Uncertain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/7 "2011-01-25T02:32:40Z")
You’ll have the problem that different English speakers pronounce words differently. How, for example, will you spell “schedule”? ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/8 "2011-01-25T03:38:45Z")
You really only need one letter - or “glyph”. Now, when it comes to punctuation, however… ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/9 "2011-01-25T03:47:16Z")
> [@Uncertain](#): > > You’ll have the problem that different English speakers pronounce words differently. How, for example, will you spell “schedule”? If you spell it wrong, people will think you’re full of skit. I agree that the IPA is the best current solution to the problem as posed. This fact may induce the OP to pose a somewhat different problem. For example, Spanish has a near-perfect orthography that serves many divergent dialects. It only serves Spanish, however, which allows it to be quite simple. ---
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/10 "2011-01-25T03:48:58Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > a) invent a new language This has already been done: [Esperanto](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto) “Esperanto is written in a modified version of the Latin alphabet using a one-sound-one-letter principle.” > [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > How many letters will I need? Esperanto has 28 letters. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/11 "2011-01-25T04:16:03Z")
You need 10 letters to make it the metric alphabet. The 10 letters are: A B C D E F G H I JKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ So some words are spelled the same, like BEEF -\> BEEF Other word look different, like DOG -\> DJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZG ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/12 "2011-01-25T04:34:45Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You need 10 letters to make it the metric alphabet. > > The 10 letters are: > A > B > C > D > E > F > G > H > I > JKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ > So some words are spelled the same, like BEEF -\> BEEF > Other word look different, like DOG -\> DJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZG You’re close… [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwRvMugmhQI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwRvMugmhQI) ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/13 "2011-01-25T04:41:56Z")
> [@AnalogSignal](#): > > This has already been done: [Esperanto](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto) > > “Esperanto is written in a modified version of the Latin alphabet using a one-sound-one-letter principle.” > > Esperanto has 28 letters. The thing about Esperanto is that it has only five vowels. English has at least a dozen. The vowels make the biggest difference between dialects; the consonants are much simpler. We need to figure out a way to mask differences between English dialects while still maintaining a regular spelling system. Otherwise England and America will sart to spell words like ‘cat’ differently. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/14 "2011-01-25T04:42:29Z")
Unless you’re doing this for a book or story or something, don’t. Reinventing the wheel is pointless. Every possible _phoneme_ (basic unit of language-construction) has already been categorized and labeled via the International Phonetic Alphabet. You would need exactly as many letters as there are IPA characters. Hie thee to Google, unless thy common sense doth preventeth thee fromst continuing. (yeah I know fromst isn’t a word) ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/15 "2011-01-25T05:11:54Z")
Dunno if it’s relevant, bur if you’re looking for tiny languages, the Rotokas language, spoken on Papua New Guinea, apparently gets by with just 12 letters and 11 phonemes (why the extra letter? Pure extravagance, obviously.) [Rotokas.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotokas_language) ---
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/16 "2011-01-25T05:35:58Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Otherwise England and America will sart to spell words like ‘cat’ differently. I think Esperanto spelling has been established. Cat is [kato](http://www.dicts.info/ud.php?l1=esperanto&l2=&w=cat) is Esperanto. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/17 "2011-01-25T06:51:54Z")
> [@AnalogSignal](#): > > I think Esperanto spelling has been established. Cat is [kato](http://www.dicts.info/ud.php?l1=esperanto&l2=&w=cat) is Esperanto. Yeah, but I was speaking of differences in English vowels across English dialects. Esperanto speakers can vary their vowels quite a bit more and still be understood; differences that would be understoon as different vowels in English merely sound like a strong accent in Esperanto. ---
**Author:** ![Wogglebug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@Wogglebug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wogglebug)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/18 "2011-01-25T06:53:13Z")
> [@Wogglebug](#): > > Somewhat grinning at Arnold for asking this question. Troublemaker! > > You’d need symbols for all the pronunciation keys mentioned by, say the Websters. > > In addition, one could argue, any symbol in a foreign language with words commonly spoken in the US that did not correspond to the English pronunciation keys. > > You could try to force people to use a simpler set, but that would fail, since language and pronunciation drifts. (“In America they haven’t spoken it for years!”) > > (I missed the lurkinghorror’s message about the IPA, that might work, too.) Ymmm. Prolly should have mentioned that I’m a professional linguist who has a patent that’s widely used in commercial products. But, you know. It’s always amusing to give those people on drugs, with intellectual pretenses enough rope … such as r\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![ChrisBooth12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@ChrisBooth12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChrisBooth12)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/19 "2011-01-25T07:11:30Z")
2, i mean you could have a binary language if you WANTED to, it may be a bitch to learn but 2 is doable ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860/20 "2011-01-25T08:39:58Z")
> [@chrisbooth12](#): > > 2, i mean you could have a binary language if you wanted to, it may be a bitch to learn but 2 is doable 01010111011010000110000101110100001000000110100001100101001000000111001101100001011010010110010000101110000011010000101000001101000010100011101000101001 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-inventing-a-complete-brand-new-alphabet-how-many-letters-do-i-need/568860.md?page=2)