# I'm Liberal. Am I wrong in this one opinion about transgenderism? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 28, 2019, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746 "2019-07-28T05:44:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/21 "2019-07-29T01:08:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh, I don’t care who you are, there is NEVER an excuse for being a fashion victim. If you go out looking like a candidate for People of Walmart, fuck yeah I’m going to criticize you. Trans, cis, whatever. That’s a pretty funny post. OP, I get what you are saying. It does seem paradoxical. I might make a candid comment to my wife in private about another’s lack of fashion but I think it’s important to realize that not everyone has the means to dress to impress or do makeup well and public ridicule isn’t going to help them get through their day. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/22 "2019-07-29T01:24:56Z")
I used to have a coworker who always seemed to go out of his way to mention how ugly rando women (and it was always a woman) looked. Like, he’d tell me about the ugly barista at Starbucks that morning. Or the ugly woman who scowled at him in the elevator. I was friendly enough with him, but I hated this aspect of his personality–this need of his to express every negative opinion about a woman’s looks, whether solicited or not. Only jerks do shit like this. But simply having a negative opinion is not jerkish. Sometimes I see “interesting looking” people and negative thoughts cross my mind. But I keep these thoughts to myself because I don’t want to be a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/23 "2019-07-29T01:42:26Z")
The first issue that comes to my mind is that talking about a trans person’s appearance and calling them ugly is very often about whether or not they “pass.” And I don’t just mean intentionally: a lot of what we perceive as ugly or not is gender conforming. We call women “ugly” if they look “mannish.” And I cannot think of any example of a trans woman called ugly that wasn’t because she still looked somewhat masculine. I also don’t agree that it’s normal to comment about how ugly people are. How pretty or sexy they are? Sure. Maybe something specific like how fat they are, or how trashy they look. But ugly? The only people I know who do that very often are jerks. People do comment on how people are dressed more (which includes the “trashy” label I mentioned earlier). But, even then, if you’re constantly shitting on people’s outfits, you start to come off as a jerk, too. Thinking is a different matter. You can think all those things. The only thing I’d be concerned about with my thoughts is my first paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Rayks\_Marcial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47c2d/32.png) [@Rayks\_Marcial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayks_Marcial)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/24 "2019-07-29T01:58:15Z")
Sadly, the first three replies pretty much summed how I feel. Beyond those, I don’t consider myself a Liberal within the usual political spectrum. I’m a pure liberal, or as some call a libertarian. I feel a person should be allowed to live as stupidly as he/she/it wants. But anything concerning me (what I feel, think, say, or do; or what I like or hate) is my business and if anyone has any problems with it, he/she/it should take it up directly with me. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/25 "2019-07-29T02:56:22Z")
> [@Rayks\_Marcial](#): > > But anything concerning me (what I feel, think, say, or do; or what I like or hate) is my business and if anyone has any problems with it, he/she/it should take it up directly with me. What does this mean? Like, if you want to assert that you have the right to describe the barista at Starbucks as a “fat ugly cow of a girl”, then I guess you have that right. But if I think that makes you an asshole, what do you mean I have to “take it up directly with [you]”? Do you mean I shouldn’t talk about what an asshole you are “behind your back”? Because you sure made fun of that person’s appearance behind their back. Do you mean something else? Because I honestly can’t see how anyone’s right to be an asshole is being infringed in the world today. ---
**Author:** ![Rayks\_Marcial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47c2d/32.png) [@Rayks\_Marcial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayks_Marcial)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/26 "2019-07-29T03:01:43Z")
Talk behind my back shouldn’t affect me. Block my way on the sidewalk for whatever reason and you risk a gunshot wound. Outside of those two, we’re friends. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/27 "2019-07-29T03:05:58Z")
[r/iamverybadass](https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverybadass/) r/thathappened ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/28 "2019-07-29T03:28:52Z")
People – it’s called a joke. 😉 (Although unless you’re Jaromir Jagr, JUST SAY NO to the mullet!) I was trying to keep things light. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/29 "2019-07-29T04:00:01Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Be whatever you want, and the rule is that people can’t give you shit for it. On the flipside, you can’t demand that people positively validate your appearance, either, or see you as anything in particular. This seems to me like kind of a strawman. I haven’t encountered any trans people demanding to control what other people privately think about them. All that trans people want is for other people to **behave** to them, and about them, in a way that doesn’t disrespect their gender identity. And like it or not, it is all too common for non-trans people to use criticism of a trans person’s appearance as denial or denigration of their gender identity. Most of the time, when someone says _“Wow that transwoman is ugly”_ or something of the sort (and it very often is trans **women** who get this treatment, for obvious reasons), what they mean is _“That person isn’t really a woman and is doing a shit job of passing for a woman”_. So you need to be aware that when you think something like _“Wow that transwoman is ugly”_, even if you happen to mean it in a totally non-transphobic way, you are reinforcing a discourse that mostly exists as a vehicle for transphobia. Of course, if you’re just thinking that privately to yourself, it’s none of anybody else’s business, but then, you’ve gone out of your way to make it our business by starting this thread, haven’t you? ---
**Author:** ![keturah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e95f7d/32.png) [@keturah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keturah)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/30 "2019-07-29T07:27:30Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > People – it’s called a joke. 😉 (Although unless you’re Jaromir Jagr, JUST SAY NO to the mullet!) > > I was trying to keep things light. Everybody already knew that this had to be a joke (or hypothetical) because you haven’t left mom and dads house in any meaningful way in a decade. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/31 "2019-07-29T13:20:53Z")
Who is the bigger doucheface? Someone who harmlessly jokes about being a fashionista? Or someone who bullies a person for being disabled? Inquiring minds want to know. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/32 "2019-07-29T13:28:35Z")
> [@Rayks\_Marcial](#): > > Talk behind my back shouldn’t affect me. Block my way on the sidewalk for whatever reason and you risk a gunshot wound. Outside of those two, we’re friends. No we aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/33 "2019-07-29T13:31:16Z")
I think “Civil Rights” and “Personal Taste” are two different things. I believe firmly in the former. I also, however, believe that you can’t dictate to people how they feel about those things as long as their behavior is “proper” in regards to the Civil Rights aspect of it. Just because you have the right to plant, grow, harvest, and sell beets doesn’t mean that I am obligated to like beets. It just means that I must respect your right to plant, grow, harvest, and sell them. I totally respect and support gay rights. There are no qualifications. However, I don’t like watching men kiss. If I surf to a movie channel and that’s what is viewing, I immediately surf away. I don’t feel guilty about that. I don’t believe that liking something is a requirement for supporting something. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/34 "2019-07-29T14:23:39Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > totally respect and support gay rights. There are no qualifications. However, I don’t like watching men kiss. If I surf to a movie channel and that’s what is viewing, I immediately surf away. I don’t feel guilty about that. I don’t believe that liking something is a requirement for supporting something. Ok, but if you see two guys on a clearly romantic date at a nice restaurant, do you comment on how gross and unsettling you find it to your table mates? If you do, and they say “that’s an asshole thing to say”, do you feel like the wrong they have done you by sharing their opinion your being an asshole is greater than the wrong you did the couple? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/35 "2019-07-29T17:02:15Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@keturah](#): > > Everybody already knew that this had to be a joke (or hypothetical) because you haven’t left mom and dads house in any meaningful way in a decade. I don’t know if you intended this as a joke of some sort, but if that was the intent, it did not come across. As-is, it looks like an attack on the poster, which is not permissible outside of the Pit. Attack the post, not the poster. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/36 "2019-07-29T19:12:16Z")
I find the Original Post jerkish but unclear. I’ve never known a trans person who wanted to control how I _perceived_ them. They did all make (quite reasonable) demands on how I _treated_ them. Things like ‘treat me as you would any other woman’ that kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/37 "2019-07-29T19:17:55Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh, I don’t care who you are, there is NEVER an excuse for being a fashion victim. If you go out looking like a candidate for People of Walmart, fuck yeah I’m going to criticize you. Trans, cis, whatever. Wow, that’s a horrible thing to say, very elitist. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/38 "2019-07-29T19:19:48Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > What business is it of yours what other people choose to wear? They don’t need an “excuse” to do so. > > If you look at other people and think inside your head that they look ugly, or that their clothes do, that’s the inside of your head and your business. Doing it out loud means it’s your ass that’s showing, not theirs. Even if their ass is literally showing. > > And has it ever occured to you that whatever’s in style at any particular moment is going to look foolish to quite a number of people? > … Yeah, and many fashions are pretty extremely silly- and sometimes unhealthy- Super tight jeans, really high heels, and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/39 "2019-07-29T19:22:23Z")
I just think everyone will be happier if one could _request_ how they want to be perceived, and other people honored that request. So that’s how I choose to act. I can’t force others to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746/40 "2019-07-29T19:46:49Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > E.g., it’s fine to criticize the appearance of a cis dude or chick (“Hey, that person is really ugly–look how they’re dressed–terrible!”), but it’s politically incorrect to say a trans person is fugly or isn’t dressed right or doesn’t look like their intended gender, etc. The former is just being a standard dick human, no big deal; the latter is being “transphobic,” a mortal sin. I believe if you stopped vocalizing your criticisms of people unless specifically asked by that person, you’d find life easier to live. Similarly, if you treat everyone the same, it won’t matter what gender they are, unless you are having a close relationship with that person. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-am-i-wrong-in-this-one-opinion-about-transgenderism/837746.md?page=3)